Love Magic & Holy Death: A Conversation with Dr. R. Andrew Chesnut

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The following originally appeared at The Revealer in an edited version, which also includes an excerpt from Devoted to Death. On February 3rd, 2013 Dr. Chesnut will be featured at the Observatory in Brooklyn, NYC for Viva La Muertean event centered on the Morbid Anatomy Library's recent acquisition of devotional materials centered on Santa Muerte.  

One of the most contentious emergent religious phenomena in recent years has been the increased public presence of Santa Muerte, Saint or Holy Death, a Mexican folk saint whose skeletal visage is sweeping across the Americas. With Her many devotees among society's dispossessed She's drawn the ire of orthodoxies both religious and legal, and has become a beacon for the media, heightening the lurid glow of stories covering immigration and the drug war. The new book Devoted to Death: Santa Muerte, the
Skeleton Saint
(Oxford University Press, 2012) by Dr. R. Andrew Chesnut,
Bishop Walter Sullivan Chair in Catholic Studies at Virginia
Commonwealth University, is one of the first academic studies in English of this complex and controversial figure. Dr. Chestnut was kind enough to answer a few questions and provide some insight into this fluid and fast growing devotional tradition.

The media portrayal of Santa Muerte is often tied to drug violence, how did that affect you as an academic going in to research her devotees?

As a specialist in Latin American, I had done research before in dangerous areas. A lot of the research was conducted at the main shrine in Mexico City, where I know the owner Dona Queta, the famous devotional pioneer, pretty well. So even though it's one of Mexico City's most notorious barrios I felt like she and others, and maybe possibly the Boney Lady herself, were watching my back. Although I did take all the precautions that I could.

??One of the aspects that I really enjoyed about your book, here you say "possibly the Boney Lady herself," and in the book you are able to capture a similar respect for her devotees. How is that being received by readers?

It just came out in January and usually you know book reviews can take from six months to two years. The first few ones have been really positive. As you know this is the first academic book in English on Her, so far the reviews have been positive. Most of the accounts of her so far have been by journalists, and many of them seeking to play up Her dark side, the Santa Muerte of the black candle and such. So yeah, I think there's an appreciation of my underscoring Her complexities and her multi-faceted identity.

I've noticed that the media seems to cover Santa Muerte differently than they do other devotional phenomena. It seems journalists are almost forced to take a recognition of her as a physical being. Often they don't talk about it like people believe in Santa Muerte, a lot of times the journalists will fall into saying well Santa Muerte does this, or attracts this, as if they are discussing a real entity.

I think I did that as well, but I did that intentionally to show, to try to convey, that for her devotees she very much is animated, she's a living Saint. Without knowing which specific articles you're talking about, I think that's a rather natural tendency.

She's often referred to as a female, since She does have a female identity as well, so you'll see I often refer to Her as ‘her.' I was aware of that, but I felt like it made sense because I was trying to excavate and highlight how Her devotees view her.

In fact, to add to that, an academic journal sent me an article submission to review, and the authors of this article on Santa Muerte, while acknowledging Her female identity, She's constantly referred to as it, and that struck me as odd.

Even if you're talking about burying a St. Joseph statue, or something like that, the  way that the media treats a practice like that versus Santa Muerte, it's very different. Do you think that the people in the media are aware that they play a hand in defining how devotees are seeing this? That their coverage is a part of how this develops in people's awareness, even down to their practice?

That's a good question, I don't know if I feel qualified to answer that, because that would be jumping in their heads.??

I guess what strikes me is that so much journalistic coverage is really superficial. It's people who know nothing about the topic, will talk to me, will do a cursory google search, and the next thing they're writing articles about it. That's how a lot of journalistic coverage of my stuff is anyway.

That's another reason why it's mostly only been the black candle side that's been illuminated by the media. As you know most media is profit driven, it's commercial media, so they want to sell their product, and violence sells. ??

The African Diaspora and Afro-Latin traditions seem like they're very porous. How far down does Santa Muerte's influence go? Does She have influence down in South America? Has Her devotion been integrated into traditions like Candomble as well, or does it seem more like Mexican phenomena?

That's an excellent question, Santa Muerte is present in all of Central America. I personally have seen altars of Hers in Guatemala. When I was in Cusco, Peru a couple of summers ago, I found some of Her incense at the big public market there in Peru. I know She is in Venezula.

I spent a month in Brazil this Summer, and no She hasn't been integrated into Candomble or any of the other Afro-Brazilian religions.

Both here and in Mexico there's a fair amount of integration also with Cuban Santeria that takes place. I think what you see in terms of the Afro Diaspora Religions is a hybridization taking place in Mexico City.

You have a fairly large Cuban community, many of those that didn't go to Miami after the revolution in ‘59 went to Mexico City. So yeah you have that cross-breeding taking place in Mexico City.  

And probably even more importantly here in the United States. I was just in a Botanica in San Francisco a few months ago, the owner is a Cuban Santero, yet half his shop, and he said half of his sales, are Santa Muerte, and he at least has been incorporating Santa Muerte into his own Santeria practice. ??So I would imagine that the largest incubator of that cross fertilization of Santa Muerte with Santeria and possibly Vodou actually happens in big city U.S.A. ??

I noticed that too. I'm in Georgia right now, there's a Botanica in Duluth, which is a suburb outside of Atlanta, the Botanica is heavily focused on Espiritismo, and Santeria, but also has a large portion of the store taken up with Santa Muerte oriented items.

It's astounding how fast that's happened, remember most people only learned about Her 7-8 years ago maximum, and to see that now so many Botanicas in the United States are living off her sales in less than a decade is just amazing.

??When I first had seen it, yeah probably, 7 or 8 years ago. There was that one report, it was a military report…

Yeah, Leavenworth, Kansas.

When was that? It was either late nineties or early 2000's.

Yeah, I think early 2000.

That was when I first ran across it, and I think they started doing some media stories then, but I was surprised too. In Georgia I wasn't expecting to find that.  Since America plays such a large part in that, does the influence from the U.S. filter back down?

That's a good question, I don't think I can answer that at this point. I haven't seen any direct evidence of that. I think that would make sense over the long haul. If you've read my book, you know that it's illegal to actually set up a Santa Muerte church in Mexico City as of 2005 when they revoked Archbishop Romo's license to practice.

So, since it is legal, and there are temples here in the United States, and since religious freedom is so much greater here, I'm sure that there's a degree of innovation taking place here that probably exceeds innovation in Mexico.

Given the great fluidity of the Mexican immigrant population here I'm sure that's taking place, but I haven't seen any direct tangible evidence of that yet.  

It seems this possibility plays into the responsibility that the media has up here to cover it properly because it will go back down. Recently there was that case where they were blaming Santa Muerte practice as a whole for a family that had committed murder. If  reports continue to focus on highlighting and exaggerating violence, and these aspects are starting to filter back down into areas where there is violence, that could lead to problems.

Exactly, and I saw that because I was actually referenced in those particular stories that you were talking about.

I know some of the AP reporters who went to write the story and, you know, their knowledge of it is fairly superficial. But again that's kind of par for the course for the mass commercial media anyway.

I do what I can. I was on Fox News a few months ago; I tried to make my points. I got some of my points in. I was waiting for them to ask if I thought Santa Muerte should be deported.

You sent me a recent article, was it from the Houston Chronicle?

It's actually the weekly, the Houston Press.

That article was a fairly extensive one, they still titled it as Narco Saint, but it was a lot more positive.

Exactly, right it was more nuanced than most, but of course you've got to have the sexy part right?

It seems that in much of the coverage they don't talk about La Familia, and some of the groups that have Protestant ties that do terrible things, that have very strange violent practices.

Yeah, that is true, although there is one particular British journalist, Ioan Grillo, who worked at the Houston Chronicle for years, he's done some really good reporting on La Familia, and also now you know they were split and became the Knights Templar, on both of their religious connections. Yeah, I mean that's true, but also I mean you know the figure of this grim reapress is so much more intriguing and compelling. So that is somewhat understandable.

Particularly imagine from the European vantage point, a lot of times the media interest from Europe has been more intense than here. Here's their European Grim Reaper who has become a major saint in Mexico. Most Europeans are atheists or secularists, they look across the Atlantic and are mind boggled by what they see with their grim reaper becoming a grim reapress.

There are also accounts of St. Death from the Middle Ages, that was someone that you could pray to, and people did. A lot of the older traditions of the Cult of Saints are very practically oriented. It's interesting that the figure of Santa Muerte is kind of a catch all. ??

Exactly, and so that's been another major transformation that She apparantly has undergone. All of the anthropological reports from the mid-20th century show Her almost exclusively as a love magician. So, you know, in just a couple decades She's morphed from love magician to multi-tasker.

How does She interact with Jesus Mal Verde? Do those traditions of folk saints fall in together? ??

I think that with those two specific figures of Santa Muerte and Mal Verde I think there's probably more competition than collaboration. Particularly because until Santa Muerte appears as a Narco Saint, Mal Verde for a long time had been the premier Narco Saint. And more specifically he's really tied to the Sinaloa Cartel, which is still the strongest cartel in Mexico. ?

Yet in just a few years Santa Muerte now has national coverage. You'll always see people from different cartels being apprehended with Santa Muerte paraphernalia either on their persons or at their safe houses or whatever. So yeah, I still think that there is that specific, not maybe exclusively Sinaloan, although His main shrine is in Culiacan, the capital of Sinaloa, but still more kind of Nortena regional.  

Whereas Santa Muerte, again, in less than 10 years, you'll find Her from the Yucatan to the border as well. So yeah I think in that case it's more of a competitive relationship, and particularly because of their association with the competitive cartels, but in general I think in the larger scope of Latin American folk saints, I don't think it's such a competitive relationship. In fact you'll find people that might have several at their home altar. ?

You'll hear that refrain a lot that She's really jealous, in fact on your home altar you should really have no other saints because She wants the sacred space to Herself. Yet every altar is well populated by all kinds of friends of Hers, including the Virgin of Guatalupe, St. Jude, whatever, so while you might hear that, in practice it doesn't seem to be true.

How does all this come together with the Catholic faith? It seems that there is some disconnect with the institutionalized church.

Definitely. In my book I show how pretty much everybody but a teenage girl tells me that they're Catholic, yet, when you talk to them further, it's clear that the great majority of them are not practicing Catholics in terms of going to Mass and having any kind of significant relationship with the institutional church. So, like the great majority of Mexicans, they'd be cultural or nominal Catholics who don't have really any significant ties to the Catholic Church.

Most of them see this as part of their Catholicism, yeah I think that's the most common view. Kind of as an extension, a nominal extension of their Catholicism, and either haven't heard, or if they have, don't care, that the Catholic hierarchy has condemned Her as Satanic.

Texas and L.A. would be the obvious places in the U.S. to find Santa Muerte. Are there other places where she has a large following that wouldn't be obvious?

I think a really good example, and I talk about this in the introduction to book, when I first started doing the research it didn't even occur to me to look for Her here in Richmond, with a Latino population of under 5%.

First, I went to Mexico, I went to D.C., found Her easily in D.C. It was kind of late in the research where I thought I might as well see if She's here in Richmond. Sure enough there are a couple of Botanicas that are well stocked with Her paraphernalia, I can go buy votive candles half a mile from my home in an area that's not even Latino.

I just found it very telling and compelling that here She is in Richmond with a Latino population of less than 5%, which tells me that I think she's got national scope, even in medium size and smaller places. I would kind of think that off the beaten path, where people don't realize there are fairly large Mexican and Central American communities. Places like Atlanta have a booming, mushrooming Latino population. Another big place because of it's agriculture is North Carolina. I know there's stuff going on there. So those are kind of places beyond the big cities, where it's easy to find Her. ??

My niece lives just outside of Atlanta and she found Santa Muerte votive candles right next to the Virgen of Guadalupe in the local grocery store.

I think the latest trend, and I've had it confirmed at the Botanica I told you about in San Francisco, and one of the owners of a Botanica here in Richmond, have told me that more and more African Americans and Anglo Americans are interested in Her stuff, and that's obviously fairly recent. She seems to be transcending her Mexican roots, and even the pan-Latin roots, and appealing to people who aren't Mexican or Latin American heritage.


R. Andrew Chesnut is Bishop Walter Sullivan Chair in Catholic Studies at Virginia Commonwealth University.  He is also the author of
Competitive Spirits: Latin America's New Religious Economy (Oxford University Press, 2003) and Born Again in Brazil: The Pentecostal Boom and the Pathogens of Poverty (Rutgers University Press, 1997).  He also blogs for the Huffington Post.

 

Teaser image by OrniCosa, courtesy of Creative Commons license.

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The Amazonian brew, Ayahuasca has a long history and wide use. Read our guide to learn all about the tea from its beginnings up to modern-day interest.

 

Ayahuasca and the Godhead: An Interview with Wahid Azal of the Fatimiya Sufi Order
Wahid Azal, a Sufi mystic of The Fatimiya Sufi Order and an Islamic scholar, talks about entheogens, Sufism, mythology, and metaphysics.

 

Ayahuasca and the Feminine: Women’s Roles, Healing, Retreats, and More
Ayahuasca is lovingly called “grandmother” or “mother” by many. Just how feminine is the brew? Read to learn all about women and ayahuasca.

What Is the Standard of Care for Ketamine Treatments?
Ketamine therapy is on the rise in light of its powerful results for treatment-resistant depression. But, what is the current standard of care for ketamine? Read to find out.

What Is Dissociation and How Does Ketamine Create It?
Dissociation can take on multiple forms. So, what is dissociation like and how does ketamine create it? Read to find out.

Having Sex on Ketamine: Getting Physical on a Dissociative
Curious about what it could feel like to have sex on a dissociate? Find out all the answers in our guide to sex on ketamine.

Special K: The Party Drug
Special K refers to Ketamine when used recreationally. Learn the trends as well as safety information around this substance.

Kitty Flipping: When Ketamine and Molly Meet
What is it, what does it feel like, and how long does it last? Read to explore the mechanics of kitty flipping.

Ketamine vs. Esketamine: 3 Important Differences Explained
Ketamine and esketamine are used to treat depression. But what’s the difference between them? Read to learn which one is right for you: ketamine vs. esketamine.

Guide to Ketamine Treatments: Understanding the New Approach
Ketamine is becoming more popular as more people are seeing its benefits. Is ketamine a fit? Read our guide for all you need to know about ketamine treatments.

Ketamine Treatment for Eating Disorders
Ketamine is becoming a promising treatment for various mental health conditions. Read to learn how individuals can use ketamine treatment for eating disorders.

Ketamine Resources, Studies, and Trusted Information
Curious to learn more about ketamine? This guide includes comprehensive ketamine resources containing books, studies and more.

Ketamine Guide: Effects, Common Uses, Safety
Our ultimate guide to ketamine has everything you need to know about this “dissociative anesthetic” and how it is being studied for depression treatment.

Ketamine for Depression: A Mental Health Breakthrough
While antidepressants work for some, many others find no relief. Read to learn about the therapeutic uses of ketamine for depression.

Ketamine for Addiction: Treatments Offering Hope
New treatments are offering hope to individuals suffering from addiction diseases. Read to learn how ketamine for addiction is providing breakthrough results.

Microdosing Ketamine & Common Dosages Explained
Microdosing, though imperceivable, is showing to have many health benefits–here is everything you want to know about microdosing ketamine.

How to Ease a Ketamine Comedown
Knowing what to expect when you come down from ketamine can help integrate the experience to gain as much value as possible.

How to Store Ketamine: Best Practices
Learn the best ways how to store ketamine, including the proper temperature and conditions to maximize how long ketamine lasts when stored.

How To Buy Ketamine: Is There Legal Ketamine Online?
Learn exactly where it’s legal to buy ketamine, and if it’s possible to purchase legal ketamine on the internet.

How Long Does Ketamine Stay in Your System?
How long does ketamine stay in your system? Are there lasting effects on your body? Read to discover the answers!

How Ketamine is Made: Everything You Need to Know
Ever wonder how to make Ketamine? Read our guide to learn everything you need to know about the procedures of how Ketamine is made.

Colorado on Ketamine: First Responders Waiver Programs
Fallout continues after Elijah McClain. Despite opposing recommendations from some city council, Colorado State Health panel recommends the continued use of ketamine by medics for those demonstrating “excited delirium” or “extreme agitation”.

Types of Ketamine: Learn the Differences & Uses for Each
Learn about the different types of ketamine and what they are used for—and what type might be right for you. Read now to find out!

Kitty Flipping: When Ketamine and Molly Meet
What is it, what does it feel like, and how long does it last? Read to explore the mechanics of kitty flipping.

MDMA & Ecstasy Guide: Effects, Common Uses, Safety
Our ultimate guide to MDMA has everything you want to know about Ecstasy from how it was developed in 1912 to why it’s being studied today.

How To Get the Most out of Taking MDMA as a Couple
Taking MDMA as a couple can lead to exciting experiences. Read here to learn how to get the most of of this love drug in your relationship.

Common MDMA Dosage & Microdosing Explained
Microdosing, though imperceivable, is showing to have many health benefits–here is everything you want to know about microdosing MDMA.

Having Sex on MDMA: What You Need to Know
MDMA is known as the love drug… Read our guide to learn all about sex on MDMA and why it is beginning to makes its way into couple’s therapy.

How MDMA is Made: Common Procedures Explained
Ever wonder how to make MDMA? Read our guide to learn everything you need to know about the procedures of how MDMA is made.

Hippie Flipping: When Shrooms and Molly Meet
What is it, what does it feel like, and how long does it last? Explore the mechanics of hippie flipping and how to safely experiment.

How Cocaine is Made: Common Procedures Explained
Ever wonder how to make cocaine? Read our guide to learn everything you need to know about the procedures of how cocaine is made.

A Christmas Sweater with Santa and Cocaine
This week, Walmart came under fire for a “Let it Snow” Christmas sweater depicting Santa with lines of cocaine. Columbia is not merry about it.

Ultimate Cocaine Guide: Effects, Common Uses, Safety
This guide covers what you need to know about Cocaine, including common effects and uses, legality, safety precautions and top trends today.

NEWS: An FDA-Approved Cocaine Nasal Spray
The FDA approved a cocaine nasal spray called Numbrino, which has raised suspicions that the pharmaceutical company, Lannett Company Inc., paid off the FDA..

The Ultimate Guide to Cannabis Bioavailability
What is bioavailability and how can it affect the overall efficacy of a psychedelic substance? Read to learn more.

Cannabis Research Explains Sociability Behaviors
New research by Dr. Giovanni Marsicano shows social behavioral changes occur as a result of less energy available to the neurons. Read here to learn more.

The Cannabis Shaman
If recreational and medical use of marijuana is becoming accepted, can the spiritual use as well? Experiential journalist Rak Razam interviews Hamilton Souther, founder of the 420 Cannabis Shamanism movement…

Cannabis Guide: Effects, Common Uses, Safety
Our ultimate guide to Cannabis has everything you want to know about this popular substances that has psychedelic properties.

Cannabis and Ayahuasca: Mixing Entheogenic Plants
Cannabis and Ayahuasca: most people believe they shouldn’t be mixed. Read this personal experience peppered with thoughts from a procannabis Peruvian Shaman.

CBD-Rich Cannabis Versus Single-Molecule CBD
A ground-breaking study has documented the superior therapeutic properties of whole plant Cannabis extract as compared to synthetic cannabidiol (CBD), challenging the medical-industrial complex’s notion that “crude” botanical preparations are less effective than single-molecule compounds.

Cannabis Has Always Been a Medicine
Modern science has already confirmed the efficacy of cannabis for most uses described in the ancient medical texts, but prohibitionists still claim that medical cannabis is “just a ruse.”

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