Sergio Magaña, “Ocelocoyotl”, is a well-known and respected healer in Mexico City, who has been initiated into the 5,000-year-old Toltec or Toltecayotl lineage of Mesoamerica. He will be offering a 2-day workshop with Evolver LA on January 25th and 26th. Click here to purchase tickets. And continue reading for an introduction to his understandings about the nature of consciousness and our interconnection with the cosmos.
Interviewer: Magenta from Evolver San Francisco
an audio version of the interview can be found on Evolver Bay Area’s podcast
Welcome Sergio. You are doing an event with Evolver Los Angeles on January 25th and 26th, can you please describe that?
Yes. I’m very happy to start working with Evolver. I started not directly, but doing some interviews with Daniel Pinchbeck. Not directly teaching, only interviews. I’m going to L.A. to give the first level of dreaming, of Nahual, the power of dreaming.
First of all I want to get clear one thing, I am not a Nahual. It is forbidden to call yourself Nahual if you haven’t done the training of 52 years. That is a long time. I have been a lot of years, 30 in the tradition, doing all these practices. I’m teaching practices of a lineage of Nahualism that has been passed from master to student for at least 1,460 years. The first level we will be doing there is the preparation to be a dreamer. It doesn’t happen in the dreams, because you must change your perception to be able to see yourself in the dreams. We will also cover how to plant dreams in our unconscious. Of course that’s a new word, unconscious – the word in ancient Mexico was the cave. We look at how you plant those dreams with certain archetypes; the most ancient ones are animals. For example, if you want to have a dreaming of healing, you plant a dream with the serpent. Or there are many other codexes you can use – rain, certain types of winds. Then there are certain techniques to fall asleep, so that in a certain moment you can look for your dreams. When you begin finding your dreams, is when they begin making reality.
So, for two days we are going to do something very very deep. A lot of things that can change your life.
Thank you for coming all the way to Los Angeles to share this wisdom with everyone.
I’m very happy. I’ve been traveling for the past three years all around the world. In the U.S. I have been working a little farther away, in New York or in Denver. But now I’m going to Los Angeles. I’m really pleased to be opening. It was like a prophecy. The last ruler of the Mexica empire, Cuauhtemoc, before Tenochtitlan fell down at the hands of the Spanish, said “Hide our treasure, because the sixth sun is coming back.” The treasure of course wasn’t gold, the treasure was knowledge, especially the knowledge of how to be a dreamer, and all those things. I am very happy to be able to share it in this time. Because for us, the entrance of the sixth sun started in 1991 and will finish the complete transition in 2021. Now we are in the main entrance to what we call the sun of darkness, the sun of dreams, the sun of the inside. Now the lineages of Nahualism are opening themselves to share, and I am part of this cosmic plan, so I am very happy that there are people interested in Los Angeles in learning all of this.
Do you find that other cultures as well at this time are beginning to bring forth teachings that have been kept secret because they are needed at the cosmic transition we are going through at this time?
I’m not really sure. I can talk about dreaming – all the calculations about suns and cycles were done in Mexico, by Mayans, or by Aztecs. So we are sharing, at least in the Toltec Mexica culture. I haven’t heard about Mayans sharing dreaming techniques. But for example, I know that in Buddhism in the yoga of the dreams, the very deep teachings about dreaming are not done without a lot of years of preparation, retreats, in certain monasteries. I know modern teachers like Charlie Morley, with whom I am doing what we call the Lucid Dreaming World Tour with both cultures, he has to have authorization for every single technique to be taught. So I am not really sure. I don’t know if people know, but for a Buddhist, one minute of meditation while sleeping counts for a week of retreat. And for us, the dream has between 4 to 52 times the power and strength of when you’re awake. In Kerala, the one that can dream is the one that has the power. I’m not really sure that everyone is sharing, at this moment at least.
Does the dreaming tradition that you work with incorporate any herbs into the practices? Or is it more techniques and mindfulness and being introduced like what you were describing with the animals and what to look for, and how to reflect back to oneself and see?
There are two main lineages. I notice if I say Mexica, anthropologists and people will say the last group of the Aztecs. If I say Toltecs, people would say that is a culture that flowered in Mexico around the year 1000. For the oral tradition, this is not exact. Mexica, which means the people of the moon, were the first dreamers that existed for the oral tradition (which is impossible for anthropologists to know), 50,000 years ago. They used a lot of herbs, for example mezcal, that is a very strong liquor, and also peyote was named mezcal, it comes from metzli, the word moon. They began changing their alta, their perception, through herbs and through plants. They still, for example, do a lot with teas for drinking in the night and all those things. After the Mexica came the Toltecs – not the culture, the original group. Toltec comes from tole, which means measure, the ones that know the measure of the universe. They created disciplines based in the mathematical count, altering your perception through the obsidian mirror, and through other methods. An example of a technique that was shared between both is snake powder. A snake defined death, and they made a powder with the bones and a little bit of poison. You took it down your tongue, to begin altering your perception. In Mexico there were many many formulas. Both lineages have been evolving themselves and sharing. For certain very advanced practices, the Toltec lineages needed an ally that changed the perception of the one that is dreaming, and in the moon lineages they only do certain kinds of things at the beginning of their training, and then they enter in the disciplines of the breathings and all those things.
Thank you. How does lucid dreaming relate to shapeshifting?
The first thing you must be able to do to shapeshift in the dream, is say a certain Nahual phrase. If you are able to do it in the dreams, then you will be able to do it awake. I have never seen someone shapeshifting, but what I have been able to see, because it’s part of the training, is people splitting in the night, Tonal and Nahual. They split the Nahual, that would be your energetic body, for sleeping, and then the Nahual can move things. Some can make the Nahual change into an animal. Also for example the Buddhists that I knew were practicing how to cross walls in the dreaming. That’s the way certain Tibetans were able to cross walls – you practice in the dream, and then you say it like in the dream. But it’s not exactly shape shifting. It’s that your body, your physical body is sleeping, your energetic body is the one that is changing.
Right. Can you describe that a little more, the distinctions between the physical body and energetic body, or other bodies, if there are those?
There are five bodies, and they make the egg, or the aura, the energetic bubble. What we call the Tonal, is like your mind, who you are awake, that is surrounding your head when you are awake. Nahual is the energetic body that you will use at death and that you use to sleep, that is surrounding your navel when you are awake. There is a third one called ihiyotl that goes from your liver to your legs, and then there is another that is the kind of soul, that goes from your heart to your left side. They are spinning and they make the egg, the complete energetic body. The process of falling asleep for normal people, is that the Tonal comes down from the head and takes the Nahual up, so they exchange positions. That’s why we can be in the same area of a place, and we are in a completely different reality. Because for the tradition it would be that you are no longer in the kingdom of the sun that rules the Tonal, but you’re in the kingdom of the moon that rules the Nahual. So to be a lucid dreamer is to create a habit in which instead of changing, they meld. They meld and they become one.
Taking this possibly one step further, I was reading some of the interviews and writings that you have online, and you talk about the cosmic order being directly related to human consciousness. Can you describe what you mean by that?
Of course. For example, for the Aztec calendar, the long count is of 26,000 years. That’s what science calls the precession of the equinoxes. The main cosmic order is the number four that repeats constantly in the universe. For example, two solstices and two equinoxes; four phases of the moon, or elements. We split the long count into four, that gives you periods of 6,500 years. That’s what we call suns. One sun is of light, and the other is of darkness. What I explained before, in the sun of light – satisfaction is outside, God is outside, medicine is outside, everything is outside. It’s like being awake, in which you cannot see yourself. They are very good for religions.
Now that we’re entering in the sun of darkness, the sun of darkness is like being asleep or at least with closed eyes. You are forced to see yourself, your own cave, your own conscience. You’re forced also to work with your dreams. That’s the first and the main temicxoch (lucid dream). It affects the periods of dreaming and the periods of not dreaming.
The rotation of the sun is in 26 Earth days, so for the ancients, 13 became like the number of the sun. A lot of the exercises you do before sleeping to get consciousness in the dream have to do with the number 13, to put light in your darkness. The Pleiadies and Orion are considered the ones that rule the dreaming state. They repeat the same position in the cosmos. Every 52 years, one day in November, there is a perfect alignment of Orion, and it was said that’s why the dream has four times the power, because 52 is the number of Pleidies and Orion.
There are many other measures that affect us – there are the mathematics of Venus and the moon, that for us is the division between the Tonal and the Nahual… there are measures based on the times that the moon, Venus and Mercury crosses between the Earth and the Sun. In the Aztec and Mayan calendar there a lot, a lot of different measures that are used for different things. All the dances and the exercises, the sweat lodges, and everything are based in those cosmic energies for us. They affect the dreamer. That’s the main explanation of how the Tole or the measure of the universe affects human consciousness.
That brings me to another question. I’m curious if you’ve taught in your classes, people who are western scientists and mathematicians. Do you find it possible to bridge the topic of the interconnections that you’re describing, with people who come from that kind of “scientific” worldview?
Yes, they are there. For example I have an astronomer student from San Francisco, and he said “But how could they measure the cycle of the Pleiades and Orion?” When I explained that it was because of the alignment, he agreed. A lot of western people dedicated to all this science tell me, “But how did they do it, if those things are just being discovered?” They are being discovered by NASA and by the press. These things have always been there, no one had the attention. But my groups have been huge. In Mexico I was teaching between 500 to 2,000 people a week before leaving my radio show to go abroad to teach and to present my books. So I had physicists, I had people for astronomy, people for astrology, that is other kind of science, mathematicians, doctors, and everyone finds a relationship. I’ve never had a problem with anyone saying this is fake, because it’s not fake.
Do you have in your own practice, in your studies, do you have a personal edge at this time, a goal that you’re working toward, or a theme that you find persistent?
This might sound a little bit weird, but learning how to sleep it to learn how to die, so my goal is to be achieving that. We’ll have a very big book with a big publishing house and all those things. But while I die, and my real goal is to die consciously, to decide where I go. If I want to go and meld with the sun, or if I want to become a Nahual – that would be like a Buddha or avatar, where you get your energetic body free. So in this period of my life I am really satisfied with what I have done, like in the material world, but I have been doing this for exactly 32 years. I started at the age of 8 with my nanny. So, I have achieved many material things, so in these times what I really think about – I don’t know when or anything – is to die without losing consciousness. To die in the proper way.
Thank you for sharing that. Are there safety guidelines when you work with other realms or learn to be fully conscious across the realms? Also, do you have any recommendations for setting sacred space for your practice, or a space to focus?
Of course. In the dreaming state are two type of beings, what we call yeyelli are the energetic beings that feed off destructive energy, and there are beings that are your guides. There are very simple things like putting a black seed in your navel, or a lot of things that can protect that. But I would really really recommend not starting with a book or the internet with practices of dreaming, because you’re not completely safe. Try to follow lineages that have thousands of years and that have a lot of information of how to do it.
Thank you so much for answering that. It’s helpful information, because I think a lot of people are interested in lucid dreaming and a lot of people go to the internet to learn. I’m really grateful to you for bringing forth a strong tradition and container because of the depth and magnitude of this kind of work. Thank you for bringing more people’s awareness to what is happening.
For me it’s a real pleasure. I have been offered webinars, but they last two hours. In two hours I am not able to teach people safely. That’s why I have rejected, and I only do personal workshops. It would be easier for me to do webinars because I wouldn’t have to move from Mexico and all those things and leave my life. But if I’m going to do something, I think that I should do it in the best way possible.
Would you do a webinar if you were given an extended time to do it, maybe over a series of sessions or something, or is the internet interface just too problematic for the transmissions?
Probably, in the future, it’s a possibility, I would do webinars. But if they are perfectly planned, if we have the complete time for explaining and for doing, all those things. I’ve only been offered ones that were for two hours or something like that, so I didn’t accept because it’s not enough time. This is a science, a science of dreaming that has been preserved for thousands of years, and it has infinite information.
Oh I just remembered one more question I have. Can shapeshifting, and other ways of being conscious through the realms, like with the energetic body and the interconnection of everything, can that be used to communicate with people who may be making decisions harmful to the planet at this time? For example, government people or some corporation leaders. Not to control them, which I know for sure that is not in integrity, but to communicate with them?
Everything has duality. So it can be used depending the decision of the one that knows how to do it. But we must not be dreaming anymore, there are many corporations, governments all those things that are training people in dreaming, that’s true, but that’s a decision.
So from what you’re saying, I’m hearing that similar to communicating in the physical realm, it’s the same kinds of interactions and awareness of your intentions and influence, and vice versa?
Yes. Because in the dreaming state, there is no mind, so there can be a lot of communication that can come to the physical reality and all those things. It can be used with ethics, and with integrity, and it can be used without it. But it’s the new vision of the 6,500 years that are coming.
One other thing you said in the writings I was reading… you said about giving new dream seeds to yourself, or once you described it as giving dream seeds to the Earth and then it gives it to you. Can you describe that planting of dreams and altering one’s existing dreams that one may be unconsciously patterning?
Planting of dreams is a technique that is not exactly planting. There are certainly techniques like the ones I’m going to show in L.A., in which you construct like you’re the architect of the dreams, and then you say a key phrase. There is the most common place where our Nahual goes, and then there are deeper places where you plant dreams. That’s how you are creating your futures through dreams. But probably what I was referring to was the black seed that you use for protection so that no one can enter in your dreams. When it’s done, you can plant it in the earth. These are two different things. One, is to plant your own dreams to create your destiny, and the other to give back to the Earth the seeds that are protecting you.
Oh that is so beautiful!! Thank you so much for sharing this wisdom and answering all my questions today. Is there anything else that you would like to share?
I’m really happy, I’m really happy to be in Los Angeles. I hope that a lot of people come that take the time, believe me, you will have information that can change your entire life. I have had students that have had the optic nerve death in the night and that they see in the morning. People that couldn’t walk in the night and could walk in the morning. A lot of things that you would believe are science fiction, but the entire power of what we think is the unconscious, that is the entire power of the Nahual. So probably like my teacher says, in one night you can solve what you haven’t solved in all your life. I hope that people get inspired, and that we see each other the 25th and 26th. Thank you very much for the interview, for the time, and I hope to see the people there.
Yes thank you so much Sergio and blessings to you on your travels and teachings.
Thank you thank you, have sweet dreams and see you in Los Angeles.