This article is excerpted from Psychomagic: The Transformative Power of Shamanic Psychotherapy, recently published by Inner Traditions. The book presents the shamanic and genealogical principles the author discovered to create a healing therapy that could use the power of dreams, art, and theater to empower individuals to heal wounds that in some cases had traveled through generations. The following is an interview conducted by Gilles Farcet. 


If I understand you well, one must, in Psychomagic, learn to speak
the language of the unconscious in order to consciously send it messages.

Exactly. And if one directly addresses the unconscious in its own
language, in theory it is going to answer. But we will get to that. For now, I
would like to explain how the magic act contributed to the advent of
Psychomagic. While in Mexico, I found myself confronted with the power of
harmful sorcery. I, very naturally, asked the same power of beneficial sorcery.
If those forces could be put to the service of evil, couldn't they be used for
the service of good? I also searched for a good wizard. Then a friend spoke to
me of the famous Pachita, a small, good eighty-year-old woman. People came from
far away to consult her in the hope of being healed. I was very moved by the
prospect of meeting this famous sorceress, so I prepared myself for this.


What do you mean "moved"?

I had my guard up. After all, nothing guaranteed me that this
woman wasn't also evil. In Mexico, there are very dangerous sorcerers who can
covertly introduce a little soreness into the unconscious of a visitor and
trigger a delayed reaction. You see, at first you don't feel a thing, but at
the end of three or six months, you're in agony . . . I therefore protected
myself when I visited Pachita. You understand, she wasn't just any sorceress:
her consultations could easily attract three thousand visitors. I tell you, it
was sometimes necessary to evacuate her by helicopter. So it suited me to take


How does one protect oneself from the influence of a sorcerer?

It was in a way my first psychomagic act. Above all, I felt
that at all costs, I had to disguise myself. To go to her in the fullness of my
old identity was to expose myself to the worst. So I began by dressing myself
in brand new clothing from head to toe. It was important that my clothes not be
chosen by me. I gave money and my measurements to three friends and asked them
to go buy all the clothing they wanted to.


Why three friends?

For depersonalization and so that the outfit thus obtained did not
reflect the taste of any particular individual. Socks, underwear, everything
had to be absolutely new. It was not until I departed for the meeting with
Pachita that I put on these new garments. In addition, I prepared a false
identity card: another name, another birth date, another photo . . .

I bought a slab of pork, wrapped it in silver paper, and put it in
my pocket as a reminder. So each time I put my hand in my pocket, the rather
unusual contact with the meat would remind me that I was in a special situation
and that I should avoid letting myself get caught up, no matter what happened.
I arrived at the apartment where Pachita was operating that day, and I found
myself in the presence of about thirty other people, some of whom occupied
important social positions. I should point out that I met her under relatively
privileged conditions, far from those crazies who press around her while she
operates in a public place. I made myself part of the intelligentsia. Although
she had never been to the cinema, Pachita knew that I was a filmmaker, director
of the film El Topo, which had been talked about a lot. I
approached and saw a tiny old woman, stocky and nearly blind. Her forehead was
rounded and her nose fell downward giving her the appearance of a monster. I
had just entered when she tossed me a piercing look and heckled me, "Boy, my
boy!"-it was a little strange to hear myself called "boy" at more than forty
years old-"What are you are afraid of? Get closer to this poor old lady."

Slowly, I got near her, stupefied. She had used the right expression
to address me. At this age, indeed, I was not mature. While I was no child, my
level of maturity was not really that of a forty-year-old man. At heart, I had
remained an adolescent. 

"What do you want from me? What do you want from this poor old
lady?" she asked me.

"You are a healer, right?" I responded. "I would like to see your

To general astonishment-everyone wondered why she suddenly granted
me so much importance-she put her hand in mine. This old lady's hand had such
softness, such purity . . . It could have belonged to a young
girl of fifteen. I couldn't believe my senses.

"Oh!" I exclaimed. "You have the hand of a young girl, of a
beautiful young girl!"

At that moment, instantly, I was invaded by a feeling, difficult to
describe. Facing this deformed old woman, I felt myself in the presence of an
ideal adolescent, the girl that the young man in me had always searched for.
She had her hand raised, palm toward me, and it clearly appeared to receive
something. I was completely lost, and I did not know what to do. From her
assistants a murmur arose. "Accept the gift," they all told me, "accept it!" I
thought quickly: the gift of Pachita is of an unspeakable nature; but I wanted
to act like I accepted the invisible gift. So I made a gesture as if taking
something in my hand. But as soon as I approached her, I saw something shining
between her ring finger and middle finger. I seized the metallic object that
was nothing other than an eye on the inside of a triangle. Now, it was
precisely the symbol of El Topo .
. .
I began to draw some conclusions from this-at the very
least-striking experience: "This woman is an exceptional magician. When she
first put her hand in mine, I clearly felt that she was not hiding anything.
She had prepared her blow, but how did she make this eye emerge from out of
nowhere? How did she know this object was the symbol of my film? In any case,
she had me." I then asked her if I could serve as her assistant, and she immediately

"Yes," she told me. "You will be the one to read the poem that will
cause me to go into trance."

So I began to recite a consecrated poem to the divinized Mexican
hero, Cuauhtémoc. Suddenly, this shriveled old lady let out an enormous cry,
close to the roaring of a lion, and she began to speak in a man's voice, "My
friends, I am happy to be among you. Bring me the first of the sick!"

The patients began to line up, each holding an egg in his hand.
After rubbing their whole bodies with it, the sorceress broke it and examined
the white and the yellow to detect the evil . . . If she found nothing grave,
she prescribed infusions, or sometimes stranger things like café au lait
enemas. It happened that she advised eating termite eggs and making a plaster with mashed potatoes and human excrement
. . . When she judged the problem serious, she proposed a "surgical operation."
Witnessing these interventions, I saw incredible things; compared to these
operations, the work of Filipino healers would seem innocent.



Oh! I could tell you of hundreds of operations. Later, indeed, I
continued to serve as her assistant. I wanted to be the first to scrutinize the
phenomenon, and thus I was witness to the most unprecedented things. I'll first
describe the ambiance. The majority of the time Pachita operated at her home at
the rate of one or two sessions per week. This apartment was pervaded by a
pestilential odor because she gathered up all the sick animals in the
neighborhood to live there for a time and do their business . . . It was
torture to wait in this place breathing in the dog, cat, parakeet droppings . .
. Yet, as soon as Pachita entered the room to operate, the odor seemed to
disappear just from her presence. Without a doubt, it was her incredible
presence, the allure of a queen who made us forget these nauseating fragrances.
This little old lady had the aura of a great reincarnated lama.


What do you believe made her so impressive?

I often asked myself . . . Because in the end Pachita impressed
the disbelievers as well as the followers! What is certain is that she was
disposed of an energy superior to the normal. One day, the wife of the
president of the Republic of Mexico invited her to a reception given on the
patio of the government palace where a number of cages held a great variety of
birds. When Pachita arrived, these hundreds of sleeping birds at once woke up
and began to chirp as if to greet the dawn. There were a number of witnesses
there to confirm this incident. But she did not leave it to her charisma alone.
She knew how to create an ambiance around her appropriate to captivating the
guest and the patient alike. Her house was kept in semidarkness; thick curtains
prevented any light from entering and were so effective that arriving from
outside, one was plunged into a world of darkness. Some assistants-all of whom
were convinced of the objective existence of the "hermanito"
(little brother), as Pachita had named the spirit that she supposedly contacted
and who, in her opinion, worked the healing-led the newcomer down the hall in
his sudden blindness. These assistants played, it seems to me, a key role in
the smoothness of the "operations."


You mean to say they helped the sorceress execute the conjuring?

It could be that Pachita was a genius conjurer . . . In fact, it
will never be known. What's for sure is that all these assistants, in the role
they played, were not accomplices to trickery; all of them had an immense faith
in "the Little Brother." In the eyes of these brave people, the hermanito
was the one that mattered. Pachita was but an excellent healer; a "channel," as
one would say today, an instrument of God. They respected the old lady, but
they did not venerate her until she was in trance. For them, the disembodied
being was more real than the person in the flesh through which he manifested.
This faith by which Pachita was surrounded generated a magic atmosphere, which
contributed to persuading the patient of his chances for a cure.


How would an ordinary consultation with Pachita proceed?

Seated in an obscure hall, a group of clients waited their
turn to enter the room where the sorceress operated. All the assistants spoke
with low voices, like in a temple. At times, one left the "operating room"
concealing a mysterious bundle in his hands. He went into the bathroom, and by
the half-opened door, those in the waiting area could see the glow of a burning
object. The assistant came out and murmured, "Do not go in there before the
evil is burned. As long as it is active, it is dangerous to approach. You could
catch it." What was this "evil"? The waiting clients didn't know anything, but
knowing they had to hold their urine as long as the immolation lasted created a
strange impression. Little by little, they were leaving consensus reality, to
topple over into a completely irrational parallel world. Then suddenly, from
the operating room, four assistants appeared carrying an inert body wrapped in
a bloodstained cloth. They put the body down like a corpse. Indeed, once the
operation was over and the bandages in place, Pachita required the patient's
absolute immobility for a half hour-or sudden death. Fearing being crushed by
magic forces, the recovering patients do not make even the slightest movement.
Immobile as a rock, they definitely appear dead. It goes without saying that
this clever staging puts the next candidate into a state. When Pachita calls in
a deep voice, always using the same expression, "It is now your turn, darling
child of my soul," that generally makes them shake and regress into childhood.
In this sense, this sorceress does not treat adults but children, and all are
treated as such, whatever their age. I once saw her give a bonbon to a minister
and ask him in a serious and tender voice, "What hurts you, my little boy?" People
give up body and soul to her, taking her as an antidote for their terror.


You have described the ambiance and the preliminaries, which is
certainly very important; but I would like to know how the operation itself
proceeds in general. As "assistant," you were a privileged witness.

Only up to a point, because I was, like the others, captivated by
the magical ambiance! Pachita always had the patient lie on a cot, by the light
of a candle, because the internal organs in her opinion faced damage from
electric lights. She marked the place on the body where she was going to
"operate" and surrounded it with alcohol-soaked cotton. The odor filled the
room, enhancing the "operating room" atmosphere. The healer was always followed
by two helpers-I was often one of these two assistants-as well as half a dozen
followers who were forbidden to cross their legs, arms, or fingers, so that
energy could circulate freely. At her side, I saw her finger sink almost
entirely into the eye of a blind man . . . I watched her "change the heart" of
a patient: with her hands, she seemed to open his chest; the blood ran . . .

She made me plunge my hand into the wound. I felt the flesh wriggle,
and I withdrew my fingers, bloodied. From a jar to the side, I passed her a
heart from who knows where-from the morgue or the hospital-that she
"transplanted" to the patient in a magical way. Soon after being placed on the
chest, the heart seemed to be absorbed and disappeared just like that, as if
inhaled by the body of the patient. This phenomenon of "inhalation" was common
with all of the "transplants": she would place a piece of intestine on the
person being operated on and no sooner would it disappear into him. I saw her
open a head and put her hands in it. There was an odor of burning bone, the
sounds of liquid . . . The operations were not lacking in violence and
constituted a rather shocking show, in Mexican fashion, but Pachita showed, at the
same time, an extraordinary softness. 


What was the role of the followers present?

The sorceress relied on their presence. Should an operation seem
to be going badly, both Pachita and the patient would solicit the active help
of all the people present. 


Can you give me an example?

I remember an operation during which El Hermanito
screamed sharply from Pachita's mouth, "The child is getting cold! Quick, heat
the air or we are going to lose him." A second later, we were all running, on
the verge of hysteria, in search of an electric heater. As soon as we plugged
it in, we realized the electricity was out! "Do something or the child is going
to be in agony!" growled the Little Brother, while the patient, on the verge of
cardiac arrest from actually seeing his stomach opened and the guts in the air,
whimpered, frozen in terror, "My brothers, I beseech you, help me!" And we all
gathered around and put our mouths against his body, blowing on it with all our
might, worried, forgetting about ourselves, trying frantically to warm him with
our breath. "Very good, my children, my dears," the Little Brother cried
suddenly. "The temperature is back up, and the danger is passed. I can


Did you ever lose a patient?

No. To my knowledge, Pachita has never killed a person while
trying to heal him, even if the operations often had critical moments. That
seemed in a certain way to be part of the process.


Did the patients suffer?

In general, yes. The operations could be painful. When Pachita
died, her gift was transferred to her son Enrique, who operates like his
mother. When I assisted him, I noticed that the hermanito spoke
more sweetly and that the knife no longer caused pain.

I remarked about this to one of the assistants who responded, "From
incarnation to incarnation, El Hermanito makes
progress. He has learned recently to not make his patients suffer."


You have said that Pachita showed a lot of tenderness, in spite of
her big knife. You were treated by her yourself, weren't you?

Yes, I had a pain in my liver, and I was curious to try having an
"operation" myself. Pachita told me that I had a tumor on my liver, and she
agreed to treat me. I decided to make a game of it, telling myself that she
couldn't possibly kill me. Because, of all the people she had operated on,
there had not been a single mishap. The time had come to put myself on the hot


And you weren't afraid, about the pain?

No, because for me it was all theater. I wanted to undergo an
operation to see what would happen. But when I found myself on the bed in front
of Pachita, with a huge knife in her hand and surrounded by her praying
followers, I did begin to feel afraid. I would very much have liked to get up
and leave, but it was too late. I realized that she was cutting me with her scissors . . .

I felt the pain of my flesh being cut with scissors. Blood ran, and
I thought I was going to die. After she made the cut in my stomach, it felt like
my belly had been ripped open. I had never felt that bad in my life. For about
eight minutes, I suffered atrociously, and I went completely white. Pachita
made me drink some herbal tea, and then I could feel blood rushing through my
body again. Then she acted like she was pulling out my liver . . . Finally, she
passed her hands over my stomach to close the wound. And the pain instantly
disappeared! If it was sleight of hand, the illusion was perfect. Not only did
those present see the blood running and my opened belly, but they also felt the
same pain as the patient. Since then, my liver has never bothered me. Leaving
aside the cure, that was one of the greatest experiences of my life. That woman
was something spectacular, as impressive as a mystical Tibetan lama. Never had
I felt so much pain, nor so much gratitude, as in that moment when she told me
I was cured and that I could go. In that instant, I saw in her the Mother
Goddess. What a psychological shock! Pachita was a great psychologist; she knew
the human soul.