“Take a Leap of Faith into Yourself.” –Jackee Stang
In this Delic Radio episode of Ask Dr. Cook, Jackee continues her quarantine series with a renowned regenerative medicine specialist, Dr. Matt Cook. Throughout the coronavirus and beyond, Jackee and Dr. Cook tackle subjects related to the practice of psychedelics and personal development. “Take a leap of faith into yourself,” Jackee says. Aside from the coronavirus and telemedicine, Dr. Cook and Jackee speak about the healing process, transcending adversity, and building strength and determination to walk your own path.
About Dr. Matt Cook: Besides being considered one of the most talented physicians working today, he’s one of the amazing speakers that will grace the stages of Meet Delic this August 8 & 9th. Currently, Dr. Cook is the president of BioReset Medical, a trusted and respected regenerative medicine practice. In addition, he sits on the scientific advisory board of several high profile medical companies including VMDOC, FREMedica & Vasper Systems.
Jackee: Except what I’m writing down with my highlighter right now, so just for the listeners out there, it’s not that I’m unprofessional, it’s just that we’re in an epidemic and I’ve recorded four shows today. That is win. Let’s start with wins, what do you say?
MC: I’ll start that. I’m going to say, for me the fact that one of us has a highlighter right now. That’s a huge win for me.
Jackee: Yeah, it’s a weird thing to write talking points down with, because you can’t really see what you’re writing, but-
MC: That’s good. That means you don’t have to take your talking points that seriously, Jackee.
Jackee: That’s good. That’s a good lesson for people. Take some things seriously, like washing your hands, but not talking points.
MC: Yeah. Wins.
Jackee: Okay. Yeah. So wins. Wins is is something I do with my people every Friday, just to show gratitude. But I learned it from a mutual friend of ours. So what was your win for today?
MC: I think my main win is that all the important people in my life, nobody’s getting sick. I would say that’s probably my biggest win. And then also it’s interesting because you know how hard I work and the last couple of days I feel like a college student. I’m basically drinking coffee and talking to people. That’s a win because normally I’m scheduled for 12 or 13 hours a day. And so then it’s just been absolutely fantastic to be… It’s also a win because I’m really thinking about some things like I used to think about when I was doing a term paper because you have to think more broadly and deeply and dive into some things. So it’s been intellectually super fun.
And then I’m going to build a telemedicine business. And then I got a win today. Up until now, it was a pain in the ass because if you want to do telemedicine, technically there were all these rules where you had to, that doesn’t make any sense, because state medical boards control medicine. But what’s going to happen is doctors all over the country are going to get infected and they’re not going to be able to work. So nobody is going to end up… It’s going to be chaos for healthcare.
And so there opening it up so that doctors from other places can call in. I think it was a little bit nepotistic, that’s why they did it that way. But as a result, now you can do telemedicine anywhere in the country. So we’re basically pivoting and moving into a totally different space that I hadn’t really planned on doing. So, that’s another win.
Jackee: That’s a lot of wins. That’s amazing. I’m super happy for you. And yeah, telemedicine makes so much sense. I’m surprised that it’s taken this long because for the most part, with the exception of very good doctors like yourself, you might as well just phone it in if your doctor, because they phone it in any way. So it’s like-
MC: That’s a good one. You know what? I’m just going to phone this one in, Jackie. I’m sorry.
Jackee: Some things you can phone in, right? Like you could diagnose people on the phone. When I’m super sick, I used to call my dad. My stepdad is a physician. He’s a gynecologist, but I’d call him if I had the flu just to make sure I wasn’t dying and it always worked out.
MC: That’s hilarious. Apparently there they’re doing, on telemedicine, they’re calling in and having people open up their mouth and they’re doing dental exams by telemedicine too.
Jackee: I like that. Well, they also have robots doing surgery.
MC: Yeah. They’ve been having robots since surgery for a long time. Although that’s a really strong use of the word robot.
Jackee: Okay. Fair enough. I think that would help in this situation though. [crosstalk 00:05:48]. That would help if we had pseudo robots going in and treating virus-infected patients.
MC: A robot?
Jackee: Because that would cut down on the amount of infection of the healthcare workers.
MC: Jackee, I would call that a win, that you just came up with the solution to [inaudible 00:06:07] this contagion.
Jackee: You’re welcome.
MC: Robot doctors and nurses. That’s a great call.
Jackee: Well, it’s that we don’t want to lose the healthcare professionals.
MC: Well it’s interesting because that’s like I was talking in that last thing that I did, because I was all like, when we talked the other day, I was all like, I’m going to do this. I’m going to send everybody home because they were afraid. I was just, I’m just going to go take care of people and just do this. And then basically everybody is so panicked about this, and I think I understand all sides of it. But I realized I can’t do this by myself. And so then that led me the wisdom of just rebooting in telemedicine while we calm down.
Jackee: Yeah. There’s been a lot of talk, or Matt and I have had a lot of, Matt Stang and I, have had a lot of conversations in the psychedelic realm about telemedicine and how to create a scenario for, let’s say ketamine clinics. Where patients can come in and get pre-screened, or do whatever they need to do post, and not during, but post and pre, on telecommunication and how that would probably be great for the user and the facilitators.
MC: That’s a really good… Well do you mean getting screened before and after, and then doing the therapy at home?
Jackee: That would be nice.
MC: You’re talking about doing the integration at home.
Jackee: Yes, exactly.
MC: I think that’s a great idea.
Jackee: Our friend, Fleur, is working on that. You can read about in Fortune, and she’ll-
MC: She was in that article, right?
Jackee: Yeah. She’ll also be at Meet Delic in August.
MC: In August.
Jackee: Break. Meetdelic.com. Get your tickets today.
MC: Hey, by the way, Jackee, can we mention our other sponsor?
Jackee: Yes, please.
MC: WeCare. Because Meet Delic is paying for this, but WeCare is paying for the other half of this. Tell the what WeCare is.
Jackee: Well, WeCare is a conglomerate made up of Matt Stang and Dr. Matt Cook, operating for the sole purpose as a C Corp to care about Jackee’s treatment.
MC: That’s a good one.
Jackee: I’m lucky. That’s a win for me. I-
MC: That’s a win.
Jackee: It’s a super win. And I guess a win is that I recorded a bunch of conversations today, thanks to the coronavirus, and I’m more productive than I was last Wednesday. What day is today? Thursday.
MC: It’s interesting. As I go back, we had a conversation about four months ago, or three months ago, when you were here. I remember I said, and it’s interesting because I said, “I think that Meet Delek and the podcast is going to be a vehicle for healing for you, because you’re going to get out there and talk to a bunch of people.” And then just makes that even more true. Because it forces you to dive into it, and so it’s cool.
Jackee: It’s super cool. I love podcasting. It saved my spirit in so many ways. And I remember back when I produced Bulletproof Radio and people would look at me cross-eyed when I talked about podcasts and now they’re a lifeline for a lot of people in this new crisis, but also in this digital age. And you’re starting one as well. Bio Reset Podcast.
Jackee: That’s amazing.
MC: Yeah, it’s-
Jackee: I’m glad that people are going to get to hear your stream of consciousness.
MC: Well it’s an amazing too, it’s interesting because the way the universe is and the world is, just because we started it and we literally started it the day before I found out about corona. [inaudible 00:11:15]. But sometimes the universe is like that.
Jackee: Hell yeah.
MC: Speaking of corona, how are you feeling about that? How’s yours stress level? What’s going on for you with that?
Jackee: Yeah, so I imagine with the majority of the world right now, it changes so rapidly. We talked about heart rate variability, I think last time, or maybe that was another conversation, but the emotional variability with this thing is so fast [crosstalk 00:11:52] since we spoke. Yesterday was a pretty down trodden, hopeless day, and today’s super hopeful and I think mostly because I was extremely distracted and utilizing my voice to get my thoughts out, which is just a basic tool for anyone who wants to relieve stress and I remain as I was in the beginning of all this, very just hopeful about the opportunities that this is presenting while it hurts. Healing is painful and I’m okay with some pain.
I empathize with the people. Just viruses in general, there’s the pain that we all feel amorphously just because you could just feel it in the air. But then there’s you think about the people who are separated from their loved ones because one has corona and you see the images of what you have to do to a patient to keep them, to wrap them up in plastic, basically, and how inhumane that is. And the media is just flashing that on the news every two seconds and if you have any heart that’s really painful to see because it’s so unnatural. I have a lot of empathy for the actual human, the pain loved ones are feeling, and the people who actually have the virus.
MC: Yeah, that’s a good one. Well, it’s interesting, because once you get into that empathy, then you can get into thinking about what you could do to fix it.
Jackee: Absolutely. Yeah. I had that very talk with to somebody today about, we get in these shame spirals which causes a lot of depression. And if you think about it and you feel privileged because you’re in a situation, you feel privileged financially, or circumstantially, or because you currently don’t have coronavirus even though it sounds like a lot of people are going to get it. Really, that’s an opportunity for you to hone yourself and your skills, so that once this is over, or when the time comes, that you can be a useful part of the community in helping in whatever way you can based on whatever talents you have.
So it’s not just you lie here sitting dormant waiting for the world to turn just because you don’t have corona. We’re all on a mission here. Not just to not catch it, but to… I don’t know. Tighten our bootstraps. I’m confusing colloquialisms.
MC: That should be the name of our new album.
Jackee: Tighten your bootstraps.
MC: Well, I was going to say confusing colloquialisms.
Jackee: Oh yeah, that’s good. But so I feel good today. How do you feel today? Or since we spoke last.
MC: I feel great. It was so interesting because it was like I thought for sure I was just going to be able to rally the troops. I was 1000000% that I was going to rally the troops and we were just going to go basically heal Silicon Valley. And then it was like, look, can I have a talk with you? I’m really panicking. And then I think part of it is because I’m always doing stuff to myself.
I feel intermittently a sense of invulnerability because generally if anything happens, I can fix it. But then most people don’t feel that way. And so then you have to be aware of that.
But it was interesting because I got these people from a religious, community that called me and I was down because I was like, “Well, I can’t do what I was going to do. But I may go to China or go somewhere else where they have more organization and then try to get the protocol out there.” Because I do think the probability is if I did my stuff, I would take and probably decrease the amount of people that go on a ventilator by 50%.
But so then it was interesting about the faith-based community and just interfacing with different communities, because this lady called me who was at a real high level in one of those communities, and she goes, “Our people are not afraid of dying.” It was amazing. She was like, “If you teach us what to do, we will do it.”
It was in her voice. I heard that and I was like, I basically said, “I’m always going to love you. I am always going to appreciate you, because I just love that attitude.” That’s my attitude.
Jackee: Yeah. Just find the solution. Just do it.
MC: Find the solution, but then it was interesting, but then another, who’s the super successful guy, called and he goes, “Hey, I want to,” he goes, “I think,” and it was interesting because we’d had four conversations because the thing came out about the telemedicine and so then he goes, “I have a business plan for you.” And he literally texted just exactly what we had been talking about it all day. Which is just, take my protocol.
Probably 60% of my protocol and be just injected. You could inject it into your belly fat, like what you did and interestingly, I can get you a couple of articles that you can put up in the show notes, links, but I think that a lot of our stuff is going to be nearly as effective as a lot of the medications and then there are some malarial medications. There are some antivirals.
Jackee: Yeah, the Elon Musk. I wanted to talk about that. Your thoughts on what Elon Musk tweeted about that antiviral malaria med.
MC: Yeah. There is that one, and then there’s a derivative of that one that’s a little less toxic. That one is called Chloroquine. And there’s a derivative of that’s a little less toxic, called Hydroxychloroquine.
Jackee: What’s toxic about the first one?
MC: It just has more side effects. But I think what we’re going to have is if you call in, we can go through all of the drugs and then we can call in prescriptions for those, and that you can use as prophylaxis and then we can send you things that you can inject. We can send you NAD that you can inject. And then we put together antiviral supplement plans and then if there are people who are interested in ozone, you can get an ozone machine from this company Longevity that I told you about the other day and all of those can be helpful.
Some of them might be 10% helpful and some of them might be 40% helpful, but you start to stack a bunch of things like that and then you could be way better.
That’s interesting to think that almost everybody that has big problems is the people with heart and lung disease or kidney disease. And so I imagine those people are the people that really need prophylaxis, either from medication or the stuff that we do. But then I think I’m really excited about the idea of educating people and getting in front of this from a prophylaxis perspective because then that is another really, really good way to flatten the curve.
Jackee: What is a prophylactic?
MC: A prophylactic…
Jackee: What is a prophylactic?
MC: Oh, a prophylactic is like… Let’s say that there is a disease coming around and then you take a drug that kills that disease before the disease gets to town. So you’re taking that drug, and since that drug is in your body, when the disease comes, your body can kill it with the help of the drug. So the drug prevented you from getting the disease, and so it’s prophylactic. So another use of the word prophylactic is a condom would be prophylactic because it’s preventing a baby being born.
Jackee: Right. So you’re putting on a condom for the coronavirus?
MC: Yeah. A coronavirus condom.
Jackee: So do you have to take it? Do you just have to take it every day basically until you might get it? Or you just have to take it every day until they find a vaccine?
MC: Well, so the
Jackee: With this particular virus?
MC: They’re going to come up with a whole bunch of vaccines. The question is are those vaccines going to work? We don’t know. Number two is the prophylaxis. We need to do a bunch of trials to figure this out because not everybody that takes the prophylaxis is going to prevent it. And then some people that take the prophylaxis could have side effects on the prophylaxis. So then what epidemiologists do, and basically they just look at the math and then they look at the numbers. And so for example, I talked to one doctor today. He was like, “I’m putting all my patients on the hydroxychloroquine.” Another name for it is called Plaquenil. And then I talked to another doctor today and he goes, “Oh, no. I’m not putting any of my patients on there.” But he goes, “If they get pneumonia, I’m going to put them on there.” So I was like, “Really?”
And so then part of that is an individual experience, and maybe one of them had them a side effect with that drug and so maybe he’s a little bit more sensitive to it. And so there’s a little bit of a science and a little bit of an art in making those judgment calls. And then there’s a little bit of a mathematical analysis of how effective is it, and how worth it is it. And so then my commitment for tomorrow is that I’m going to… Because a bunch of stuff has come out on this in the last 24 hours, and so what I’m going to do is I’m going to write up a thing and then we’ll put it in the show notes, and then we can discuss it and I’ll go through point by point. Because no matter where you are in America, these are things that you could quite easily do, and it’d be helpful for you. And then we can also mail and script out all the stuff that we have to.
Jackee: Got it. What are your thoughts on isolation and the importance of people, without the government force, okay? It seems like America’s going to have to take it into her own hands, and people locally are just going to have to quarantine themselves because they start to believe that it’s actually going to stop spread quicker and help the curve. And the last time we spoke, you talked about the real problem is the lack of ventilators in America or lack of our current healthcare system’s ability to treat that many people. It’s pretty basic math. And yet you guys are on “lockdown” up in San Jose, but again, I was at the beach here in Venice, eight hours south, and people are just kind of… They’re still living their lives. And do you have any new thoughts on that? The one thing I’m worried about, I just really wish that the government would mandate something so we could get our economy back.
MC: That’s a good question, Jackee. I was talking to our friend Winston, who I introduced you guys to.
Jackee: Shout out to Winston.
MC: Shout out to Winston. He’s so great. And Winston is such a good banker. Two weeks ago he was like, “They’re shutting down all the gyms.” So he goes, “Oh, I think I’m going to buy stock in Peloton. It’s 20% up.”
MC: He’s a capitalist. He’s such a great capitalist. And so then that’s Winston Ibrahim, people, and his company is called Hydros. And interestingly, he’s just selling tons of his product too because it’s an amazing water filter. And so people are looking for things that are going to make their life easier in this situation. It’s like a Brita, but it’s faster and 10 times better. And I did my residency in San Francisco, and I would say that my all-time favorite San Francisco restaurant was this placed called Delfina. Have you ever heard of it?
MC: It’s in the Mission. It’s just the greatest. And the people that go there, the people that run it, seem like they all have a Ph.D. in literature from Berkeley or something like that. I love the vibe there. But basically they shut down and they’re like, “We’re not coming back.” They completely shut down.
Jackee: Oh, man.
MC: Because basically 30% of the economy, I think is social establishments like that. Our favorite restaurant, Dio Deka, down here has been empty. Economics I think is a major problem. And Winston interestingly had a good idea. He goes, “I think what they should do is look at all of the people who are the most vulnerable people and then just quarantine them, and send people in hazmat suits in to feed them and give them food and stuff like that, and then let everybody else go to work,” which I thought is kind of an intriguing idea because my sense is that this is going to be prolonged, and then in two weeks it’s not going to be any better. And so then it’s going to keep going. It’s going to go for a while.
Jackee: Yeah. I know. I hope not.
MC: Me too.
Jackee: But American is a really big country, a large amount of space, to have to shut down by mandate.
MC: And it’s interesting, Jackee, because if you think about… I grew up in western Montana. That’s why I love country music so much. Obviously rock and roll too.
MC: Obviously. But often there are these small towns and they’ve got hospitals, but there’s five or six… A lot of these places have five or six or ten doctors in town. And then imagine something like this goes through, and then literally all the doctors now, imagine them… There’s a town, and you can’t go see a doctor. And then I was thinking about it last night because I was like, “It’s crazy.” It’s crazy to think normally we would just be podcasting and we’d be talking to people that are out just riding their bikes and driving their cars, and they’re just living their life. And it’s like we are all at this moment where everybody’s at home by themselves trying to figure out how to get through to the next day. It’s a very unique moment. And then the vulnerable are still vulnerable because imagine if you had a problem, you’re up in the Hi-Line in Montana and… I’ve had so much empathy for the circumstances of people lately. It’s kind of interesting.
Jackee: Absolutely. So instead of going down… I can’t take it because the empathy is too strong. I was kind of forced to think about what I can do now to better myself so that I can help those people now or once the situation is over. Which of course you’re going to be wildly useful in that regard as well because you are a very talented learned doctor.
MC: Oh, thank you. But that’s a good one, Jackee. Let’s unbundle that one, the empathy is too strong. Why do you think the empathy is too strong?
Jackee: Well, I say that for me because in the same way that… I just feel things deeply, right?
Jackee: So if it’s in the air, it’s like a really heavy, heavy blanket of something I can’t deny. Like when you take psychedelics, when I take psychedelics, when anybody does, you cannot unsee what you’ve seen. Even with just one psychedelic experience, it’s undeniable. And anybody denying that is just lying to themselves. And so the door is opened, and it’s there. You’re incapable of lying about what you’ve seen. And that’s how I feel about sometimes with heavy situations like this, you can’t get it out of your head. Once you’ve seen that image of somebody basically wrapped up in plastic being carted off by guys in plastic suits, and the horror of that weighs heavily on me and millions of other people. It’s just thick.
MC: Oh, my God. It’s intense. Well, I’ve got a spin this one for you though, which is interesting because I have this thing. Some people are kind of mildly sociopathic.
MC: Yeah. Now the thing about those people, we actually know probably a bunch-
Jackee: I know a lot of those people.
MC: We know a bunch of those people, and so then they’re sociopathic. Now the good thing about them is that all kinds of hell is breaking loose, but it doesn’t even lightly phase them, right?
MC: Because they’re just looking around trying to figure out what the best opportunity is-
MC: -to get through this situation. Whereas you and I are deeply empathetic, and so then we see something and we’re like, “Ah.” It’s like getting punched in the gut.
MC: I think I told you about this one time before, but I have reframed this one for myself because I always felt kind of weak and stupid about myself and kind of insecure because we were talking about these superheroes the other day on the podcast. And what I was going to tell you is that it was funny that felt that way because for most of my life I felt insecure about the fact that I cared so much. Whereas I saw other people that were just more opportunistic and more successful, and those things couldn’t phase them at all, right? But those people also have almost no emotional availability.
MC: And so then paradoxically our gift is kind of… And it turns out in this society, you need all of those people. And so then what happens is, and this is what I’m suggesting, is that then when you feel that almost punched in the stomach, it’s almost like you’re immediately reframing it as, “Oh, I experience things deeply, and that just means I’m an empathetic person and everything’s cool.” And so then when that happens, it derails you from going down into shame. Because a lot of times what happens is if you get hit with that and then you have a little shame that you’re running at the same time, then those two conflate and you can’t figure out what part of that is empathy with other people and what part of that is your own shame. And then it’s just… Does that make sense?
Jackee: 100%. We’ve talked about a lot, conflation. Is that a word? I so easily conflate two scenarios in my head and then attribute it to one feeling.
MC: Right, right. So now this is kind of like another… In a way, these are all just like maybe this is a hologram and we’re here to be taught some exercises, and then we’re going to go back to the home planet or something. But what I’ve noticed for myself in the last six months for sure is that when I notice that happening, I diagnose it right away. And I’m like, “Oh, I was feeling insecure about that,” and then I saw that whole thing. And then I’ll immediately come to the realization that whatever happened, like that person in the body bag, is awful, but I didn’t put them there, right?
MC: And so then what happens is I’m able to be empathetic, but I’m not letting myself go all the way down the rabbit hole. But I’m still empathetic enough to say, “Hey, doesn’t it seem like we could probably come up with some strategies to prevent this?” I mean, that could be social or cultural or political or medical or academic or spiritual, and any one of those is kind of good. But then that also, whatever venue you choose, then further keeps you from conflating the things. And it’s kind of like what we were talking about the other day when I said something bad happens and then you start to figure out how you’re going to be able to reframe this into something that’s going to make you a better person, and then you see the future of where you’re going to be. And so it’s like I’ve been doing that with these scenarios, and so I’ve been doing that with this coronavirus thing too.
Jackee: Oh, yeah, man. Thank you. I used that one today in an interview, so thank you for that.
MC: Oh, really? Really?
Jackee: Oh, yeah.
MC: How did you do it?
Jackee: A person who was interviewing me asked me sort of a grandiose question about my hope for the psychedelic space and how that relates to the now current epidemic of corona. So I used it in that regard because it’s like, “Well, that’s a hard question to answer simply. But also, I don’t know, the only thing we can do is imagine the future a year from now once we’ve figured this out. And in a way that’s our only option, right? If we’re sane human people who want to keep living, we have to just focus on the positive after and move towards it.
MC: What is your hope for the psychedelic space in general?
Jackee: Well, it changes every day. So my daily hope is that more people get to have pure psychedelic experiences, meaning with pure psychedelic substances which is a really big problem. Access to pure substances is a really big problem. And that people don’t go to jail for consuming matter from the earth. But ultimately the reason I want people to experience things like that is because the perspective that you get as a human being with talents beyond your wildest imagination, it’s stuff money can’t buy. And if more people get to open that up within themselves, then perhaps we could solve world problems quicker. And ultimately I’m just a practical person, okay? I just want what’s the fastest answer. How do we get to point B as soon as possible? And we’re feeling it now with this epidemic from this invisible force, this COVID virus. And we’re in 2020, and how have we not figured this out yet?
MC: I know. Isn’t that crazy?
Jackee: I mean, Elon Musk is shooting rockets into outer space and digging tunnels underneath the earth to create real-life Back-To-the-Future Jetson-type scenarios, and there’s this new virus. Obviously the trouble is that it’s new, okay? Well, it’s new to us. We didn’t know about it until recently. And that requires us getting to know it and learning so we can find solutions. But there are other corona viruses and, from what I understand, there have been attempts to create vaccines before to corona viruses, but to no avail. And even just, I think we mentioned this on the last call, there’s certain viruses that people catch more regularly now, like herpes.
There’s still not a cure for something like that and I think people, the antiviral is the same for the last 40 years. In my own experience, psychedelics can really give people a swift kick in the ass and get them motivated to solve problems.
MC: That’s a good one. When you were talking, you reminded me of, you know we were talking about that Sturgill Simpson song, Turtles All the Way Down?
Jackee: Oh man.
MC: The line is, marijuana, LSD, psilocybin, and DMT, they all change the way I see, but love’s the only thing that ever saved my life. Oh my God, that’s so good. But here’s another good line from that song. The line is, it’s like he meets God, and he says, my son, it’s all been done and someday you’re going to wake up old and gray, so go and try to have some fun, showing warmth to everyone you meet and greet and cheat along the way. I started my day and I watched this two-minute video that Matthew McConaughey put out about turning the red lights to green light, and I could listen to Matthew McConaughey talk for about six hours a day, it would be-
MC: It would just be great. Isn’t he the best? And it’s interesting because it gets you into reality because then you go to this, like, “Okay, well what is it all about?” And what it’s all about is love, and compassion, and friendship and all that stuff. So then maybe the virus comes, but then somehow, we … it’s kind of like then, we orient actually to what it’s all about. Neo, the more he has to fight those guys, the more he becomes an amazing specimen of peace. And as the fight gets bigger, he transcends to higher and higher levels. And then, to take it even one step further, then it’s like when you feel that pain and the empathy, then it’s kind of like, okay, then we just have to heal deeper. And as we do that, then we’re almost more empathetic because we can handle more.
MC: And we can handle more because we’re connected, we’re human beings, and as soon as it happens one time, and this happens in my practice all the time, somebody will say something and it’ll be like, I’ll be sitting there and it’ll be like a kid or something, you know what I mean, and it’s just like something is so chaotic that I can’t even believe that that happened, so then I just sit there and I’ll feel like I want to cry.
MC: And a year or two ago, in the past, I wouldn’t have been able to stop, I would have just started crying because these are crazy drama stuff. But then what happens is, what I got into doing is I just sit there and then I’ll feel that feeling and then I’ll kind of talk to them in this tone of voice, and I’m talking kind of like this, and this may be helpful for you. So I’ll be talking almost like we’re in a podcast or we’re in the clinic and I’ll want to cry because it’s so intense like somebody was just abused or stuff like that, but then it’s trippy for them to see that I’m able to … They can tell how empathetic I am, but I’m still being in this super cool vibe.
MC: And then what happens is, once I’m in that super cool vibe, then what I notice is that nobody ever was like that because it’s a little unusual how I am, so then it becomes a new pattern. So then typically what they’ll do is they’ll just follow me wherever I am. Now, interestingly, Jackee, two years ago, if you would have said the worst thing of all time to me, I would have gone all the way there with you, and then we would have both been totally depressed.
Jackee: Right. And what good is that? What good is that?
MC: And we need the Matthew McConaugheys of the world to cheer us up because they’re not going to keep them down, and I almost feel like I almost kind of channel a little bit of him when I’m working and stuff like that.
Jackee: Yeah. I don’t know, man. I don’t know, man.
MC: But then what happens is, once you break that pattern, and this is the favorite thing that I’ve discovered in maybe my whole life. I’ll be sitting there and it’ll be about as long as we’ve been talking about this topic, I went from crying to … almost wanting to cry, to all of a sudden, here we are in this … I was going to cry about whatever you were saying about the drama, but now all of a sudden because we’ve decided that we kind of have the same energy as Matthew McConaughey on this. But it’s like whatever comes up, you know what I mean? So then, that is such a profound reframe, so then in your consciousness, you’re sitting there and you’re dealing with the trauma, but you’re also dealing with this new realization that you just have a cool way of dealing with this, and it’s always enormously surprising to me that I got there. And it’s always super surprising to everybody else too, but then it leads you to this super incredibly hopeful place, and what happens is, people will look and you can tell that they realize, “Oh, I’m going to be okay.” Like, “Matthew McConaughey is my doctor.”
But no, listen to this. It’s tricky, but all you have to hear this is just one time and if you practice it about 50 times, you can do it. But I think psychedelics do that for people because it’s a little bit of lift-off, and they’re psycholytic, so they take away some of the internal chatter, so then they lift people up to the point that they can get that same realization where they break away from the box that they were living in.
Jackee: Yeah. They’re that swift kick in the ass outside of your trauma bubble so that you can see that you’re not just your trauma bubble or your sad bubble or whatever.
MC: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jackee: So in a way, you’re facilitating emotion as a deeply empathetic person, you’re channeling emotion for people in the same way that a shaman or … Yeah, shaman is a trigger word for people. We’re not talking about shamans here, people, we’re not calling ourselves shamans. But no, in the same way that a guide or a teacher, so yes, that is part of what’s widely unique about you and why you’re such a talented physician, but in my mind, in my heart of hearts, isn’t that … dare I say the word should, but shouldn’t that be the way people are cared for when they’re sick to begin with? With people who are trained technically for years, and years, and years, but also have this deep ability to feel and help people channel their emotions into different directions and help them see their pain from a different angle.
MC: Right. Yeah. You would think so, but then it’s just tricky because it’s just tricky to do because there’s so many different types of people and you have to meet them how they want to be met. So it’s this nuance, but what you said is exactly right.
Jackee: You know, I have never asked you about becoming a physician. What moment in your life were you like, “Yeah, I want to study medicine,” and then you became an anesthesiologist, but what was that journey for you as an empathetic? Because you’ve obviously always been empathetic.
MC: Yeah. There was this guy who was my mentor and I think it’s kind of like this, Jackee, you just have access to whoever you’re around, so there was this guy named Gray Thompson and he was a professor of Geology at the University of Montana and he was the coolest guy in Missoula, Montana, so I [inaudible 00:53:37] and he was literally not even close the coolest guy by a mile, so he was a whitewater kayaker, he was a rock climber, he was a telemark skier, and then he would do geology stuff and he would take the whole summer and go to the Bugaboos and climb these big ascents that nobody had ever done before.
I was talking to him one day and he goes … when I was in high school and I was just doing all that stuff, but then that was kind of my attitude, but he goes, “Here’s the thing. The coolest thing to do is to all that stuff.” So he goes, “And just become a geology professor and then you can have the summer off and you can go on expeditions all summer.” So then I go, “Okay, I’m sold.” So he goes, “Perfect.” He goes, “Come to my office and I’ll tell you what courses to take.” So I basically loved poetry and music and songs and stuff like that, so he goes, “Okay, here’s your first year.” And I would go, “What is it?” He goes, “Calculus, chemistry, and physics.” He goes, “It’s science. You’ve got to understand science.” And I was just like, “This sucks.” I was going to have a band and sing songs. So then I took calculus and chemistry, so then I was in all of those classes and I was talking to everybody and they were like, “What are you doing?” I’m like, “I’m going to be a geologist and a rock climber.” I was like, “What are you guys doing?” They were like, “Oh, we’re premed.” So it turned out that I just randomly got into the premed curriculum.
MC: And a friend of mine, Sam Wallace, who is a doc now up in Montana and he goes, “You know, you’re taking the premed curriculum and you’re doing better than almost any of the premed people.” Because I was really serious about being a geologist and going on expeditions, so then he goes, “You could just go change your major into biology and then you would be premed and you can become a doctor.” And I go, “What?” We literally had that conversation right outside … in the hall, in the open [inaudible 00:56:32], and I went home and I spent four hours looking at the book and calculating the courses and then I went in the next morning and I changed my major and I never looked back.
Now, what I notice is I’m just kind of journeying in to figuring out ideas and figuring out who I want to be and what I want to be, but it’s still just whoever you’re around. But all of the people at that time told me, “Hey, dude. That was not a bad idea because you can become an anesthesiologist and you don’t have to,” it doesn’t really matter who your anesthesiologist is. So, “You can be an anesthesiologist but then take six months off and go climb Everest.”
MC: So then, that’s why I went into anesthesia. But the other reason why I went into anesthesia was because when you go in the hospital, they were by far the coolest people. Everybody else, all hell’s breaking loose and they’re freaking out and anesthesiologists are just walking around saving lives like everything’s cool. So I thought they were super cool and just no stress, no pressure. But the paradox was they have by far the most pressure and that’s just the thin veneer that’s … They give you the idea that everything’s cool, but it’s not really as cool as you thought, right?
Jackee: No, you’re keeping somebody asleep but not dead.
MC: Yeah, I know. It’s so crazy. And so it’s like-
Jackee: Did they teach you, like, heart rate variability and stress-reducing techniques? Do you meditate in med school when you’re learning to become an anesthesiologist so you can keep a steady demeanor?
MC: I still remember because it’s just interesting that I’m kind of famous for vitamins and stuff like that because I still remember that we had … they were like, “We are going to do this. We are going to be integrative. We’re going to do this.” And I remember the kids because I remember where they sat, they were in front of us and to the right, so then we got two hours of integrative curriculum in medical school.
Jackee: Amazing. Define that for me. How is that different or outside of-
MC: We got two hours to cover all of vitamins and meditation and yoga.
Jackee: Which you would think would be a normal piece of curriculum for medical school, but it’s not.
MC: Right. I mean, you should because what’s interesting is it kind of goes back to our conversation the other night, which is interesting. There’s this expression, ‘Physician, heal thyself’, so then the idea … this is this idea that you’re constantly trying to heal yourself and hone yourself so that you can do a better job of helping other people.
Jackee: That’s a good saying for the psychedelic community, I’m going to push that. Heal thyself.
MC: Yeah. Heal thyself. So then you’re constantly trying to do that, but then you’re working too hard so you get run down and tired, but you’re still pushing, and pushing, and pushing, so you’re starting to be a little frazzled. And the further that you go and the more stressful your job is, then it’s like … but yet also healing people tends to heal you, so there’s this synergistic thing. It’s a trip, kind of going through it, and what happens is, almost all anesthesiologists end up with a little bit of PTSD, and I don’t know, did I tell you I ran into all these anesthesiologists that I used to know? I looked at them and I saw them at dinner and I was like, I go, “Hey, there’s all those guys over there.” And then they came over, I didn’t even think they would come say hi, and then they all came and said hi and they go, “Cook.” I go, “What’s up?” They go, “You were right.” I go, “What do you mean?” They were like, “On everything. We thought you were an idiot for being gluten-free, but you were right.” They were like, “We were sure you were an idiot for being interested in yoga.”
MC: Everything that I was interested in, which is kind of popular now, I was the laughing stock of the doctors for being interested in, and it was interesting because I would kind of try to pretend that I … I got so much flack from those guys that I would kind of try to pretend like I wasn’t that into it because I would be gluten-free but I would try to pretend because I wasn’t confident enough to just stand up for myself. So that whole journey was kind of interesting because now, I don’t even care. If I had all of the people in the world that I cared about their opinion, those guys I probably would … is last, right?
MC: But I super like them, but yet, 10 years ago, if their opinion of me was not great, it was literally catastrophic.
Jackee: Of course.
MC: Right? So then that’s a good one too. If we go back to our conversation the other day and to this conversation of …
MC: … we go back to our conversation the other day, and to this conversation of identity and journeying into who you are, there… for people who are maybe at home, sitting here in the midst of this virus or whatever or in pain and they’re worried about what other people think of them, and it may be you Jackee, right?
But then imagine in a year, you’re going to totally overcome that and then you’re not even going to care all with what other people think because you’re going to transcend it somehow. And transcendence is going to pull you out of that box and then you’re going to be able to see the scope and breadth of what you can become. And the great thing about all of the identity stuff is that then, once you’re just… and what I noticed is, once you live your identity, you get away with it
I told this story. I was doing that thing that I do where something crazy happens, then I’ll feel emotional, but then I’ll do this thing and then, the next thing I know, everybody’s having a good time. Now, people usually, when they play that card in a doctor’s office, they generally know how it’s going to go because everybody responds a certain way. And so, this teenager came in and played that card and it was crazy. But then the next thing you know, it was amazing and we’re having fun. And she goes, “You are and unusual doctor.”
And then I go… It was really funny. And then I go, “But you want to…” I go, “But it’s worked, doesn’t it?” And she goes, “I think so.” And then I go, “But you want to know the best part about it?” And she goes, “What’s that?” And mom and dad are there; I never deal with kids without mom and dad, and it’s hilarious to have mom and dad with me. And 99% of the time, I get them to film me doing it. And so then I go, “You want to know the best part is?” And she goes, “What’s that?” I go, “I’m getting away with it.” I go, “I’m literally getting away with doing that right now.” And I go, “I can’t imagine that I could be having this much fun.
And then I go to her and I’ve been… because I deal with a lot of kids. It’s interesting because then I go, “Guess what? A lot of people are going to try to put you in a box, but you don’t have to fit into that box. You can be…” I thought it was a kitschy idea when people said, “You can be whoever you want to be,” because it was fairly obviously me and my whole childhood that you had to step and follow the dominant paradigm or otherwise, it was not going to be okay.
Jackee: Right. It’s a-
MC: But now, you can be yourself. It’s amazing.
Jackee: You can. The answer to so many of our problems, my problems, I guess I can only speak for me, is literally just on the other end, the other side of… You know those room dividers from the 90s that look like a fan? I mean, it couldn’t be more reachable and yet our trauma does such a good job of pulling the wool over our eyes and convincing us that it’s not just on the other side of that really janky room divider. And that, of course, goes back to just brain synapses and neuropathways and how good our body is at forming patterns and then fucking sticking to them.
And so yeah, it takes work to recognize that and then diligence and discipline to start to retrain your brain and… because yeah, you can just be who you are, it’s just on the other side of that room divider. And the fear of not being able to be who you are is greater than what you’re perceiving is going to be the solution. Not the solution, but the result of you actually being yourself. There are no repercussions; surprise, surprise. Oz is not actually Oz, he’s just a fucking guy behind a curtain. And you just got to take the leap of faith, man. You got to be Indiana Jones… what is it? Last crusade, where he goes into Petra? Was that The Last Crusade? The Temple of Doom?
MC: The Last Crusade, that was with… The Last Crusade was with Sean Connery, right?
Jackee: Yeah, Sean Connery. Indie and his penitent. The penitent. The penitent man shall pass. Only the penitent man, right? Which is of course-
MC: That’s right.
Jackee: Which is of course, religious, but it’s like these are all… These mythologies, these religious mythologies are all still useful in our everyday life. They’re all obviously trying to tell us something and it’s like, take a leap of faith into yourself.
MC: Okay. So then here, I’m going to… Can I go back to one of our conversations we’ve had before?
MC: So, take a leap into yourself. And I’ll conflate this with my thing of the old anesthesiologist. So then, in my old life, I was always trying to keep them happy, because if you didn’t keep them happy then it was not going to be good. And now, whatever the paradigm was, is just like, look… And that, it’s good, because if a certain… if there’s in the military or an AFC show, there’s a dominant paradigm. And so it’s just like, “Just know, this is what it is and then follow that exactly.” It’s like, 747 pileup. It’s like, if you met one, you met most of them.
MC: Now, but then, if you do something different, that creates dissonance and friction within a community. So remember when we were talking about psychedelic people giving you flack or whatever? And it was because they had their rules, their little clicky rules. And so then, if you didn’t follow exactly whatever their rules are, then that was going to be a problem, just because they had set it up that, “These are the rules.” And so then the guy was like, “You should follow them.”
MC: But then all of a sudden, the more that we talk, the more I can sense from you. It’s like, “Oh, guess what? Who trusts what those guys think?” We can respect and listen and hear where they’re coming from, but we could choose to create something totally different.
Jackee: You can. And all you have to do to achieve that is to do, one foot in front of the other. And perspective really helps me realize what’s real and that we can create these scenarios of trolls or resistance, the resistance we feel from other people, and we can inflate that into our heads as being a lot bigger than it actually is. And the only way to really get away from that is to keep going, because the more you keep going, the smaller that inflated balloon becomes, because it’s just… it’s something you created and it’s not real.
Jackee: And going back to empathy, and psychedelics really help with this, the more… The resistance I tend to feel from people is really just their pain. And I can take it personally and do a… flip it in almost a narcissistic way, as if it’s all about me; of course, that stemming from my own insecurities. Or I can just see it for what it is and that’s, “Ah, no. I just ran into somebody else’s pain, and ouch, that hurts.” And then if you can just see that, then it doesn’t… you don’t bleed as hard and you just feel bad for those people.
MC: Yeah, that’s awesome.
Jackee: You’re just like, “Oh, well I’m sorry you’re in pain. I’ve been in pain too. It sucks.” And, “Okay, I’m going to move on now.”
MC: Oh God, Jackee. I want to make you-
Jackee: I nailed it.
MC: You nailed it. I could not have said it better.
Jackee: Yeah! Oh, well it-
MC: You’re a genius.
Jackee: Well yeah, no, not quite. But it takes a village to heal and you’ve been such a huge part of that. And I can’t stress enough to the importance of getting… I say this all the time and it’s because I mean it, it’s because I’ve felt it and experienced it: Psychedelics are just really efficient tools.
But before that, getting your head right from a wellness perspective. When you suffer from anxiety and PTSD and all these other things, which most people do, is to get your own biology right. Pay attention to the meat sack that is this, your flesh body, and get those levels right. And that helps so much with the overthinking and depression and yeah, so it’s… You got to get your gut right.
MC: And so, I got a good one. I have a good one on that one because I love what you’re saying. Somebody told, “It’s like we are basically just an antenna.” We’re just picking stuff-
Jackee: Beep-beep, beep-beep, beep-beep, beep-beep. Yep, that was my antenna sound. That was bad.
MC: Yeah. So we’re an antenna, and then we’re also an antenna for each other and when we meet each other. And then also, everything that we do biologically to get healthy dials-in and makes our antenna just more nuanced and better and sophisticated. So then imagine, then you meet somebody and they’re in pain, but then… And we could be empathetic to them, but we could also be like, “Oh, I have a boundary that, if I just met somebody, I’m not going to go in to a crazy pain, codependent scene.”
And so it’s interesting to… I notice and that has to do with conflating, because a lot of times maybe in the past, if somebody did some… if somebody was being weird or whatever, I would think, “Oh, this is weird, but maybe if I just go through it, it’ll pay off.” You know what I mean? And so, I would take on… I would go with it for a while. Whereas now, I notice I never go with that. If it seems sketchy, I’m just like… I might have to be out of here.
Jackee: Yeah, just put your boundary up. You deserve it. You deserve to put your boundary up, people, and walk away from situations. It’s self-care.
MC: It’s amazing. It’s amazing because what I noticed is… and this is a good one, Jackee, it’s… this is a good one for you. Once you get really good at boundaries… And I feel like I probably spend about 20% of my life just talking about boundaries, and so then just because of that, I noticed I’m just thinking about it probably more than I did. I was totally unaware of boundaries for 90% of my life, I would say.
But then what happens is, then you’re never really doing things you don’t want to do because you’re just having good… making good decisions about it. And so then, I’m almost never in psychic pain about anything, because whatever I’m doing, I’m just doing because I wanted to do it. And so I do think that that’s almost one of the greatest possible secrets to having a great life.
Jackee: Is learning how to create boundaries for yourself?
MC: Yeah, because then, whatever you’re doing, you want to do. And so then, you’re not having this psychic pain. And so then, if you’re dealing with somebody and they’re in pain, it’s because you want to be doing it, because it’s like you made some decision that there’s a coherent reason and so then… And then, if you want to be doing it and you feel good about it, then it’s not really painful.
MC: It’s like it’s [inaudible 01:17:33] because I remember maybe 10 years ago, I was in some kind of psychic pain all the time, but I also was just… I had no control over my life, it would be just… I’ll go and go upstairs and intubate somebody. And so it’s like you’re just… I was just a pawn in a… And so then, that’s the interesting thing because that’s amazing for you, because… And that’s why I was so excited about your podcast, is because there’s a self-determination that I think you’re experiencing now. And I think that is just going to be the best for you.
Jackee: It’s going to be amazing.
MC: It’s going to be amazing.
Jackee: I’m grateful. I’m grateful to you, always. I’m grateful that you have this time to get into that deep, intellectual space in your brain. I can only imagine the amazing things that… oh, wow.
MC: I was thinking that. I was thinking to God like, “This virus thing is the greatest vacation I’ve ever had in my life.” I’ve never had this little to do in like 10 years. This is the-
Jackee: Oh, wow.
MC: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And then, guess what? A whole bunch of good things are going to happen. And then, what we’re going to do, is we’re going to figure out a bunch of things and then we’re going to get buy-in.
And then, this is the greatest research moment, I would say, in history, because there are scientists and physicians, and people and human beings, all banded together to do research and test things. And they’re testing Chinese medicine and they’re testing supplements. And hopefully, we’ll try ozone and drugs. And then we’re all putting it out and sharing it and creating this massive, collaborative thing that millions of people are all doing together.
And that’s what Matthew McConaughey was talking about, it’s like, this is going to bring us together and it’s going to go from a red light to a green light, and then it’s going to be amazing.
Jackee: We all just got to keep living. All right, Doc. I love you. I’m going to go.
MC: Well, I look forward to our next conversation, it’s going to be great. And I’ll talk to you soon.