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Delic Radio: Ask Dr. Cook Call 4: F**k’em

Delic Radio: Ask Dr. Cook Call 4: F**k’em
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Delic Radio. Hello, hello, hello. It’s Thursday, March 2020, March 22nd, to be exact. (singing). All right. I’m going to light it up. I’m going to have a little puff, puff of my special cannabis with a special paper that is so special, I can’t even tell you what it is. But you’ll find out about it soon enough, darlings. Oh yeah. All righty, friends. Ladies, gentlemen, people around the world, on today’s show, we talk to our dear friend, Dr. Matthew Cook. This is the fourth installment of checking in with Dr. Cook, who is not only a friend of mine and my husband, but he is my doctor. He has helped me measurably in the past year plus addressed my anxiety and depression and gut biome and whole mind, body, spirit in a way that I was just stuck.

I was stuck on then I hadn’t, and it was Dr. Cook who gave me the big kick in the ass to really reset my spirit. I really hope you guys are enjoying the series of us talking throughout the COVID crisis. Matt Cook is a regenerative medicine specialist with 20 plus years of experience, initially as an anesthesiologist, but he has trained in many medicinal modalities that help people get better. He’s an extremely talented person, and the world could use more physicians like him. Thank you guys for listening. Of course, check out more at realitysandwich.com. There’s over 10,000 pieces of information on that beautiful, beautiful library of the site.

You’re at home, you’re quarantined, you’re bored, go to realitysandwich.com, dig around in the search bar. It’s actually a really strong search engine for the site. Google’s random words related to consciousness and psychedelics, and you will have yourself a party. Also, check out meetdelic.com of course. Meetdelic.com, the first ever psychedelic wellness summit bringing together wellness and psychedelic science in a fun, practical, super new way. Thanks guys for listening. Hang in there. We love you. (singing).

Jackee: So you talked to, you said one person, but I know you’ve been posting a bunch of podcasts.

Dr. Matt Cook: I’m talking to Jesse today.

Jackee: Who’s Jesse?

MC: Remember my friend, Jesse? She’s kind of like the woman that does ketamine journeys. She’s real spiritual.

Jackee: Yeah.

MC: So she’s going to lead people in a meditation.

Jackee: Nice.

MC: So later, I’m doing that afterwards. And people are like … and then I go … And it was funny because I was talking to some of the marketing people and they were like, “Oh, she’s the most popular one.” I go, “We’ve never done her.” I go, “Oh, you mean Jackie?” And they go, “Yeah, she’s the most popular one.”

Jackee: Nice.

MC: But it’s great. And what I’m loving is because this is almost like my life. It’s kind of like there’s a little part of it that’s science and academicy, and then a little part of it’s this interventional and doing this stuff, and then a big part of it, there’s this that’s just normal, I would say. And then I’m looking forward to bringing that voice in because then, it’s sort of like a couple of days ago, somebody sent me a text and they said, “On a scale from one to 10, how close are you to curing the world?”

And I said, “I woke up at a three, but I’m at eight now.” But then it’s kind of like it just goes all over the map, and so sometimes it’s a 10 and sometimes it’s a one. And it’s going to keep going like that, but it’s neat to have different voices in the room because it’s almost … We’re like a family, basically. And so then hearing those voices is really interesting too.

Jackee: It’s a necessity to have a variety of voices in the room, in my opinion because you’re not getting the full picture. I mean, I’m not a scientist or anything, but it seems to be that if you have a hypothesis or you’re trying to get somewhere, you want to evaluate data from as many different places as possible. And I feel very strongly about that in the psychedelic community. I had this very talk three times today on other podcasts, and because right now the filter is very much medical, therapeutic, sometimes science, sometimes anthropology.

But the data that’s been acquired from the recreational psychedelic community over the last 40 years is wildly valuable. And if we can find a way to collect it while keeping people safe and aggregate it with the more scientific data that’s being collected with these studies now, then we’re just going to get to where we want to go faster and we’re going to have a better picture. And it’s, again, relevant to COVID because I keep hearing all these numbers, and people are living and dying. That was a terrible, terrible reference. I said living and dying by these numbers. Sorry guys.

MC: But is true.

Jackee: People are living and dying by these numbers, but they’re not accurate because we didn’t start testing soon enough, and we can’t test full enough. And so they’re really just a data point. And an important data point, but it’s not the full picture.

MC: You know what, so this is a good one. So then you know who another person I had a good call with?

Jackee: Who’s that?

MC: That’s Stang.

Jackee: Yeah. She’s pretty good.

MC: They’re relaxing some of the laws around telemedicine, and so then it sounds like it’s going to be legal for me to ship ketamine and do a whole medical conversation to a patient. And then that patient is going to be able to have a guided ketamine journey with the oral dissolving tablet on Zoom. And it’s interesting, we talked to … I’ve heard five or six cases of people who had some problem. And it had been under wraps for a long time, and all of a sudden, addiction and this and that. All of a sudden, the wheels come off the bus because everybody’s stress level is so high.

And so whether it be there’s a lot of substances, or psychedelic therapies, out there that are quasi legal that I think can be very therapeutic in terms of resetting anxiety and resetting depression and resetting pain, and a lot of times, if that just buys you a couple of weeks of hope, that might be worth it because just getting your … It’s like even like you and me, maybe we were at two yesterday, but we’re at eight today, and tomorrow we might dip down to a lower number and go back in, so it’s like a … And so in a way, this COVID thing is a journey with ups and downs, but I’m hopeful. And I think you said something really good, Jackee, because this is the greatest scientific experiment that the world has ever done.

And it’s going to speed up the time that it takes to do science, because there are hundreds, thousands of clinical trials that are all going on right now, and they’re all sped up and we’re going to get an answer in a month. And then that’s going to lead to more information that’s going to lead to better answers. And so we need to then do that. And I think the field of mental health is a field that has so much opportunity for research and so much opportunity. As you and I know, just imagine if we could get a trial where we look at NAD and ketamine, because I would say anecdotally from my experience taking care of patients, when you do NAD and ketamine, it works 100 times better than if you just did ketamine by itself.

Jackee: Why do you think that is?

MC: Because in the brain, there are a whole bunch of different areas that do something. And so they all have a name like there’s a motor cortex, there’s an association motor cortex, there’s the prefrontal cortex, so there’s all of these different locations that do something and they’re called Brodmann areas. They’re areas within the brain. And so one idea is that sometimes, the electrical activity in a certain area of the brain will become slightly dysfunctional, and so you can measure that by taking an electrical picture of the brain called a qEEG. It’s like an electrical map, similar to an EKG. Now, my clinical experience is that when we give NAD, it seems to metabolically turn areas on.

And what I think happens is that the NAD goes to all of those different Brodmann areas and optimizes how the mitochondria are functioning in all of those areas. And so then once you start to evenly turn on every physiological area in the brain, then the brain is just less stressed. And so then once the brain is in a better physiological state, then ketamine is going to have a better effect because the brain is more optimized than it was without the NAD. And then I don’t know if you noticed this, but I noticed that after the session, often people will have less side effects and feel less jangly if they did NAD first.

Yeah, I’ve never done ketamine clinically without NAD, and so I will say though, that there’s almost zero to recuperate from except from the amazing psychological benefits that you got that lasts. For me, that lasts about seven days, the positive benefits, I think roundabout. But yeah, there’s barely anything to contend with from a standpoint of feeling better or hangover effect.

Remind me to go back into NAD. But so then this is a good one because this is this conversation that I love that I’m having with you. It’s interesting if you can do … We do something that has a seven day effect. So all of a sudden, it’s kind of like … I heard you say one time, the coast is clear. It’s kind of like the coast is clear for seven days.

Jackee: Right. Exactly.

MC: So then now, that is a really good amount of time. And so then we’ve been working on our ketamine workbook, and I’m going to have you help me because then it’s … And that’s why I think you’ve done so great in the last year is because you’ve done a lot of introspection in those days. And all of a sudden, I like to say, if you can just have one day and turn that into two or three and turn that into four or five or six or seven, and then you can do that, that starts to reset electrical pathways. And it’s almost like we reset to the factory default setting, or it’s like we get upgraded to have just a better, more functional operating system. And once that works, then it’s just starts to … You know you’ve got a new operating system.

Jackee: Well, and that’s what you want. That’s what I want. I’m happy to just be at ground zero. And as a depressed person or whatever my diagnosis was or is, I’m not sure, I don’t know that I buy into most of the mental ones, but I was certainly fucked up and feeling suicidal in my 30s, which was new because while I spent a lot of my 20s upset and hysterical and up and down mood swings and almost like manic behavior, I never thought about suicide. So to even have an hour where you are no longer contending with what we’ve talked about before, like the little doubt monster, just even having an hour to not contend with that is so effective at long-term treatment.

At least for me, that I’ll do anything to stretch that hour out, to stretch it out to a day, to stretch it out to seven days, to keep doing the work and the discipline to break those neural pathways for myself so that I can be at a homeostasis. I can be my optimal self at whatever age or however old my cells are in any given moment, because that feels amazing. When you’ve clicked in and you’re human and you’re not being agitated by anything that’s broken or hanging off, or that bag that gets caught in your wheel when you’re driving sometimes and it’s just flapping, if you don’t have any of that shit going on, it’s great. You could fly.

MC: Let me ask a question. If you do NAD by itself, does it help with that plastic bag that’s wrapped around your tire when you’re walking around in your life?

Jackee: So I’m just in the middle of my journey here, but ketamine so far, clinical prescribed ketamine is the most effective, but NAD on its own is up there. And I think that might have something to do though, with the fact that I like tripping, and you don’t trip necessarily on NAD. I mean, there’s a sensation of flushing, which is kind of fun, but you’re not actually going anywhere. So that might be it. But I mean, NAD I’m a huge fan. I wish that psychedelic society, if we could get more people on NAD, just give them 1500 milligrams over three days or whatever, to just start there I think it would make a huge difference. [inaudible 00:18:46].

MC: So this is maybe one of my favorite things of all time. Although I got a comment today, this my favorite comment of all time. But the psychiatrist who does a lot of NAD, I was talking to him and I was like, “Well, blah, blah, blah.” I go, “What psychiatric conditions does it help? And then what does it not help?” And he’d been doing it for 20 years and he goes, “There’s no psychiatric condition that NAD doesn’t help.” And interestingly, did I tell you about the time this kid came into my office in a [inaudible 00:19:32] state? So he basically couldn’t talk and had had a trip go horribly wrong.

And it was, you can go into something where you almost get disassociated. And so then the brother brought him in and the dad, and I was going to take him to the hospital and admit him, where they would have given him tons of drugs. And so then the family begged me to give him NAD because they were like, “You’ve already fixed everybody, so probably if you do NAD he’s going to get better.” And it was interesting because I really had a lot of resistance to the idea because I just was afraid something would go bad. You know what I mean? And he came in a bad state. And so I just said, “Fine, I’ll do it.” I got them to consent to it.

And so I gave him not even 100 milligrams. I made a bag and I was dripping it pretty slow. And this has to do with, Jackee, the idea of all of these electrical parts of the brain. We’re on video. So imagine this part is sleep, and so then the blood flow is evenly coming up here. And so the NAD starts to turn this part of the brain on and he was like, “Oh, hi.” It’s the craziest thing that’s ever happened to me. He sat there and then he just [inaudible 00:20:56] goes, “Hey, I’m back.” And then he just started talking normal.

Jackee: Wow.

MC: It was the craziest thing. And I remember I called this friend of mine before I did it. And it was kind of like I remember I was with you and Matt, and we were talking because we had done a session for you, and then you go, and this is also a little counter to let’s say traditional psychiatry, you were like, “I don’t have a problem. I’m okay. I don’t have a diagnosis of …” And that’s basically my belief system about you. You’re basically just fine. And basically, maybe if you had some dysfunctional patterns and stuff like that from behavior, trauma and stuff like that. And I think fundamentally, almost all of us do. And so then in some cases it’s a little bit more visible. And so this is this ongoing experiment that I’m super excited about, and I’m just excited about it.

Jackee: Yeah. Well, for me, it keeps coming back to the idea that I have a lot to do with how well I am. And what I mean by that is well, when you and I, and Matt, when we all first met, I was in a much different head space, and the head space that I had been in for 30 years, which was that of, well, someone’s going to tell me what’s wrong with me. Someone’s going to tell me what to do to fix it. Someone’s going to do it all for me. It’s going to come from the outside. I grew up with doctors in the house and just Western medicine, or I don’t know why that is.

I just had this belief that I hadn’t challenged. And then when you and I started working together, there was a couple of things that would come up, and you worked in a way that allowed me to think, oh no. Okay. I’m a huge player here in terms of if I’m going to get better, but more importantly, my belief system. If I believe I’m going to get better, if I believe I am better, if I believe … And we could have that conversation till we’re blue in the face. It’s going back to the brain, it matters what you think.

MC: Oh, I’ve got a really good one for you on this. And so then this one, this is an idea. I love this idea. And this one hit upon me. Insecurity of that you’re going to be okay. For me, if I was to say it, in the past, I had a fair bit of pain, like physical pain. And so then if I had pain, I would have this little creeping idea in the back of my mind that’s like, oh no, I’m going to be in pain. And it was like I had a little internal anxiety about it. And then particularly, what the hell is my career? Anesthesiology. My career was … Unfortunately, anesthesiologists are not good at curing pain. They just numb it.

Jackee: Right.

MC: Now then what happened is, as I now have injected every joint in my body with [inaudible 00:24:52], and so I generally don’t have pain. But now, if something happens to me when I’m exercising, I’ll feel it and then I’ll know exactly what it is. I’ll be like, oh, I tore that muscle. And then I’ll go, okay. I know how to fix that. And it’s probably going to take two or three weeks. And so then all of a sudden, there’s no more insecurity around the fact of walking around for two weeks in pain and not knowing if you’re ever going to get out of the pain. Almost anything that happens to me I just think, oh, I’m probably going to hear that in two weeks.

And so then what happened is I noticed this confirmational change this year so that whenever anything happens, it doesn’t stress me out at all, even if I’m in pain. And so then the transition then is to imagine if you’re in psychological pain, but then you realize, oh, I know how to fix this. And I’ve actually been running that energy too lately, the last couple of weeks of the COVID, where I’ll be in some kind of emotional frustration and then I’ll go, I’ll probably fix this by tomorrow. And then that is suspending disbelief for the seven days with ketamine or something, and so then if you can wrap your head around that and then project in and see a point in the future, we’ve talked about that the other day a little bit, then basically I think it’s super effective.

Jackee: It is. I’ve been using that, and that was a very popular tidbit [inaudible 00:26:45] from our last chat was that notion right there of imagining, manifesting, whatever mechanism it is or you want to call it. Works for me. I’m practicing at least. It’s really about your toolbox. So you have the tools that when you’re talking about physical pain, you have all the tools in the world. And it’s unfortunate that more people weren’t talking about physical pain because it’s psychological too. They’re connected. Pain management seems to be a problem in America at least.

MC: I know.

Jackee: A lot of people are in pain, what we do is we give them opioids or something similar, and then they’re just still numb, but not out of pain.

MC: Not out of pain. So then it’s interesting, Jackee. So then this is a good one. And then imagine then … We’ll do this one. This is a little two-part thing. We’ll do this for both of us. Okay. And so when I was in medical school, this person said to me, he goes, “I’ll tell you what to do.” And he goes, “This is going to work for sure.” It was a person who pulled me aside at the end of a rotation and he goes, “I’m going to tell you what to do.” He goes, “Just follow this advice and you’re going to be fine.” And then I go, “Oh, okay.” So he goes, “What you got to do is …” He goes, “Everything’s screwed up.” He goes, “You have to understand that everything is screwed up and it’s not good.”

So I was like, oh, this is a very wise person. And so then he goes, “So what you got to do is you just walk around and do your job.” And he goes, “You’re going to have to do it for a number of years.” And he goes, “You’re going to walk around the hospital.” And he goes, “The hospital’s totally screwed up.” And he goes, “All the clinics are totally screwed up.” And he goes, “The model’s wrong, but nobody knows it yet because they’re in the box and they can’t see anything other than the way that they’re doing it. And if you tell them to do it a different way,” he goes, “They can’t take it.”

And he goes, “You’re not going to have enough tools in your toolbox,” I’m kind of paraphrasing, “When in those first three or four years.” So he goes, “This could be super painful and frustrating because you’re just running around and you’re just upon on the chest part. But then that’s going to go along.” And he goes, “At some point when you become a Rook or a Bishop or something like that and you’re up a little bit, then you’re going to begin to realize what’s wrong with the whole thing.” And he goes, “At that point, then you have to make your exit.” And he goes, “You have to make a change.”

And so then he went through all of these examples of doctors that made monumental changes in medicine because they were walking around and seeing a surgery that didn’t work and so they said, “Let’s do this.” They came up with something else. And that is fundamentally what I did in my career. And interestingly, I basically woke up every day for about 17 years after that conversation and I said I’m going to find out my idea today. And I knew that it was screwed up, but I didn’t have a thing to do.

Jackee: Right.

MC: And then all of a sudden, it hit me like a tidal wave hit me. And then I realized that suddenly. And I think that in the same way, what’s going to happen is your tool box is going to exponentially grow with there is psychedelics and then there’re supplements, and then there’s just an attitude. You know what I mean? The [crosstalk 00:31:14].

Jackee: I got that done already, but yeah.

MC: And so then what’s going to happen is that toolbox then … And interestingly, you know how we talked about there was other people who maybe had their own ideas about what psychedelics were or whatever?

Jackee: Sure.

MC: I remember I said fuck those people?

Jackee: Yeah.

MC: Because what happens is you can’t capitulate to a dominant paradigm if you’re trying to change the world.

Jackee: True. And what I naively came into this particular project I’m in now, Delic, thinking or not thinking was that it was somehow going to be easy to be at the beginning of something. That I somehow was not going to feel the resistance. It didn’t even occur to me actually until I started feeling the corners, the sharp edges of certain parts of the resistance and then I was like, oh, okay. Well, I just didn’t foresee this. But now that I’m here and the more of those edges that I get in this particular project, in this business, in this body, in psychedelic space, the more I realize that that’s just a sign that yeah, I’m on the right track.

MC: Exactly.

Jackee: Because if I wasn’t feeling the resistance, I wouldn’t be on the right road.

MC: Dave Asprey, I loved it. He said his happiest moment was when he got put on Quackwatch.

Jackee: What’s Quackwatch?

MC: Well, it’s just some guy has a thing that if you’re saying things that aren’t founded by randomized controlled clinical trial, then you can’t say anything.

Jackee: Which is total horse-shit in my mind.

MC: Kind of, yeah.

Jackee: In my mind, that’s an impossible mindset because I’m not going to … Me personally, I’m wildly curious, and while I’m not a scientist, I’m really interested in science. But yet I’m not going to go get my PhD. I’m not going to go to MIT. I didn’t go to MIT. So to say that I, as citizen scientists, don’t have any data to share, it just seems like bad science. And this is an ongoing conversation you and I have started to have about physicians and scientists and the academic type being more social and opening themselves up in a more mainstream where maybe being a little bit more vulnerable. I’ve been thinking about that a lot since you and I brought it up the other day because that’s necessary to fix the system that’s broken.

MC: Yeah. So like this conversation, I’ve had a lot of conversations with groups of people where all of a sudden, they all start asking questions in front of each other. And even very personal, but it’s like there’s a social validation just like in group therapy, and then there’s the social aspect of us talking about let’s say you were down at some point in the past, but as soon as you’re talking about it, it kind of normalizes it. It’s almost like Howard [inaudible 00:35:04]. It’s like, okay, he’s anxious, but I have to think that the fact that he’s able to talk about it makes him less anxious.

Jackee: 100%. Again, an earlier conversation today with a gentleman named Dell Porter, who’s many things, but a medical anthropologist, and he’s studied Shamanic traditions compared to Western medicine for many, many years. And he talked about the tradition of consuming psychedelic substances as a group in ceremony in indigenous cultures, outside of North America or whatever, which is there are people that consume psychedelic substances as a group collectively in America but I don’t know that it’s in the same vein as the Shamanic ceremonial traditions. But the way he described it was that it’s an individual experience, but the integration requires the rest of your community.

MC: Yeah, that’s a good one.

Jackee: And basically, the way I received it was, well, you can’t really heal without your community, and that your community is responsible for your integration in the same way you’re responsible for your integration, which I think is so beautiful. And I’ve personally had a few instances where I’ve sought that out and failed a little bit, but mostly because the people in the room, in hindsight this is what I think, didn’t have the tools to share. I think everyone wants that, and some cultures were just like stiff upper lip, we don’t know how to open up and integrate collectively, whether you’re taking psychedelics or whether you’re talking about politics or solving a math problem.

Dr. Matthew Cook: So I’m going to go back to the beginning of the conversation because you know how you said, oh, in the past I would try to avoid eye contact. And it’s a trip because lately, emotional connection is a popular concept these days.

Jackee: Right.

MC: We’re just basically beings of light. And so then that’s the most important thing. And then the most important thing in life is to have some moments like that, and a lot of times you don’t have a lot of them. Psychedelics make that a little bit easier if it’s done right. But that may be the biggest if of all time. But then seeing once you connect and are accepted, it’s amazing. Right?

Jackee: Yes. It’s akin to that feeling that you can get sometimes in ketamine therapy where you’re just okay. And not to diminish the state of being okay, but to champion the idea of just being okay because when you’re … To be seen from your community means that you’re good.

MC: Yeah, you’re okay.

Jackee: And that is a great feeling.

MC: Which is my thesis, Jackee, that you’re okay. There’s no diagnosis. Remember now then, here’s my idea though. Then this is the next idea, which is then basically, as soon as you can wrap your head around that, then you can just be in that state. You could just see someone and be like, “Oh hey, how are you?” And you could go into … It’s almost like you can channel the same connected Shamonic ceremony spirit state at any time.

Jackee: That’s the ideal. That’s where you want to get to.

MC: It’s interesting, I am able to do it for sure, for five or six hours a day.

Jackee: And that’s just practice. How long did it take you to get there?

MC: Well, I think that if I could talk to me when I was like 32, I think I could have gotten myself there in a year. But at that time, I just was managing risk and the status of crazy stress every minute of the day. It’s interesting.

Jackee: Yeah, the shift in stress that I’ve felt so far in quarantine from the previous, the world is operating around me and I have to pay attention to everything that’s happening and catch a few things that are happening and I feel like I’m behind and I need to catch up, and that stress or not relating to the things or picking something that you didn’t want or dropping it or whatever is a different kind of stress. Now it’s of course an existential stress of like, oh shit. Am I going to die sooner than I would like? Or worse is are my loved one’s going to die? But that external stress for me is gone unless I open Instagram or the news. But it’s calmer in a way, more settled.

MC: Yeah, I know. Because you’re not out there, so it’s more virtual. I had to connect … The finances is interesting too with this whole thing because basically, all of a sudden, it’s interesting. I watched a really good thing. Basically, the driver of our economy, obviously there’s big tech and stuff like that that’s going to be fine, like Apple computer, but the restaurants and the hotels or the doctor’s office is all of a sudden like, all that revenue just disappeared. And so then it’s back to your manifesting idea, I just said, I’m going to totally do something different and it’s going to work. And then I basically just said, it’s going to work. And then basically, I’m just doing stuff all day, but I haven’t stressed about it. I’ve just said, oh, I’m just expecting that it’s going to work.

Jackee: Right, because your driving force is rooted in just your belief, and you’re being disciplined about reminding yourself about that belief. That’s the force. And then you anchor in that, and then you do stuff

MC: Yeah.

Jackee: You just do stuff.

MC: So you’re riding a wave. You’re riding a wave that’s like a wave of, I’m going to ride this wave. And you might get pummeled by the wave, but that is a driver. It is a driving force to me. And then I say this to people because if you can get to a driving force mentality, that is amazing. Because then it’s like, as you look at the finances and if your driving force is strong enough, obviously there’s some work that’s involved, but then committing to an idea and then just doing it, that does stick to some extent. It’s like an interesting manifestation thing.

Jackee: Yeah. Well, and you have to be flexible too. So to me, it’s being flexible and then diligently driving your life force. And flexibility is so key. If I could give anyone advice in a business sense which is the world I live in, it would be to pivot. So we’re all being forced to pivot now, which when you’re forced to do anything, it hurts a little more. But success comes when you’re able to throw a five minute fit and then you get back on the train and you move with it

And then, oh shit, I got knocked off the road again. Okay. I’m coming back on the fucking highway. It literally is determination. You have to keep doing it, and you have to be able … You have to open yourself up to change. I love change. I embrace the hell out of change. I don’t know how many people feel that way, but I find a real fluid safe feeling in just embracing change and getting excited about it. And that’s-

MC: I love change, Jackee, because in my normal world, I would be completely trying to work as hard as I possibly could for the next four hours or three hours, and I am sitting in a room talking to you on the phone. This is the greatest thing that ever happened to me.

Jackee: Work smarter, not harder as Ari Meisel would say. But to that, I think back to the community conversation, if you are an able-bodied person, whatever talent level, whatever skill set you have, if you’re able-bodied, meaning your mind works pretty well, and you have arms, and you have legs, and you can breathe, and you don’t have any actual medical problems, it’s your duty to figure out how to go with the flow, how to click into the universe and go with it while also being your own driving force because there are a lot of situations where people aren’t able-bodied. They don’t have all their limbs, their mind isn’t working, et cetera, et cetera, and they need you to help solve their problems in a communal way.

MC: Yeah, I like that. I’m thinking about what you said about, remember that story I told you about James Taylor?

Jackee: Which one?

MC: The one about how when he was a heroin addict, he told that story about when he met Paul McCartney.

Jackee: Oh, yeah.

MC: In a way, that is kind of like what you said about being seen and then that connection because he told this story in a concert, because he was strung out, everything was not working. And then somebody heard a demo that he did, and then he went over to Abbey Road, and then he walked in. And then when he walked in, John Lennon and Paul McCartney were recording Hey Jude. And he told the story and it’s like that was the best musical moment of the last 500 years probably. Right?

Jackee: Yeah.

MC: If you could walk in on any moment, I would probably pick that one. If you gave me 100, I’d probably pick that one.

Jackee: Plus he’s James Taylor walking in.

MC: Right. And so he said he walked in and they had holes in their shoes and their jeans because they couldn’t afford jeans. And interestingly, that’s ongoing to Carolina In My Mind. George Harrison and Paul McCartney were uncredited. They played on … That’s what he recorded

Jackee: Right. (singing).

MC: Oh, so good.

Jackee: I think most people would be surprised to realize that James Taylor had a problem with heroin at one point.

MC: Well, that’s crazy. And so that’s the line where it’s like, with the holy host of others standing around me, still I’m on the dark side of the moon.

Jackee: (singing).

MC: And I don’t know if I told you this. So basically, what happened is he walked in and Paul McCartney looked at him and saw him. And he was there and they recorded him. And so basically, they validated him. And he said that his whole life was a wall that was full of doors, and every door had been locked his whole life. And then he said, when Paul McCartney accepted him, as like one person accepted him and all the doors opened and he goes, they’ve all been open every day since then. And now I liken that door as looking into each other’s eyes. That’s like consciousness. And so all he needed to be was super accepted one time, and then he was good the rest of his life. Right?

Jackee: Right.

MC: And so then, I told Barb basically, and I told everybody that would listen, every day for like 10 years, I was looking for my Paul McCarthy because I heard that story, and I never found them. But then all of a sudden, I found four or five mini Paul McCartney’s at the same time. And so then that’s how I liken to what you were talking about when you, in the journey experience, because all of a sudden … And then the best is if you can have that attitude towards yourself.

Jackee: That’s the hard part. Yeah.

MC: Right. I’ll give you my technique so then you’ll know. My technique is basically, I’m like, “You don’t actually have any problems, Jackee. You’re fine. You just didn’t have enough NAD, and you needed seven days of feeling okay to reboot, and we’re going to do that a couple times.” And so then all of a sudden, I’m accepting you, Matt’s accepting you, you have your worth. Unfortunately, I’m not Paul McCartney. But all of a sudden, next thing you know, you have acceptance from the tribe. So that to me was the ultimate example of acceptance from the tribe. And then it’s over because then basically, he’s like, oh okay, I’m good. And then basically, he literally … And then he just proceeded to absolutely crush it for the rest of that decade. All of those songs.

Jackee: It just occurred to me that it’s always been difficult for me to do the whole self love thing openly because of many reasons. But one particular one is that I real hell bent on not being an asshole. And what I mean is somehow in my head I … Was that a beep?

MC: Yeah, my connection went away.

Jackee: Okay.

MC: It is hard for you to do self love because-

Jackee: Somewhere in my head I connected self-love with arrogance or self-love with that kind of boisterous, Hollywood douchebag thing. And I said, you know what, I’d rather be depressed than be that guy. I’m not going to be that guy. But then it just occurred to me as you were describing the JT story, JT is for James Taylor, and our experience, feeling validated by you, a friend, by a couple of other people who I respect, it was important to me to get validation from people I respected. And when you get that, you go back to that feeling of okay again, and you no longer are really seeking that validation in a way that makes you a douchebag. Right?

MC: Right. Those people drive me crazy.

Jackee: Well, they’re just not validated, it sounds like.

MC: Right.

Jackee: They need real, authentic validation from their tribe.

MC: Right. And so then I don’t know if this is the best answer for it, but I was exactly the same as that, Jackee. And what I did is I would say, I’d rather be depressed than feel good about myself and be inauthentic or something like that. And so then guess what I did, I just stayed depressed.

Jackee: Exactly.

MC: So a lot of times, if you tell yourself the stupid … If you come up with a rule that you’re going to apply to yourself that’s really dysfunctional and then you say, this is my rule, then you might just have that. A lot of people may come up with a rule and maybe they said it and somebody validated them for saying that, but then next thing you know, they’re depressed for 10 years. And so then follow this. This one is going to be … This is my current idea that I’m working on right now. Okay.

I just have a generally really good feeling that I’m doing the best I possibly can. In any situation, I’m trying as hard as I possibly can. And so then I don’t think I feel ecstatic, but I feel almost ecstatic about myself because I’m … Now, I felt so ethically challenged working in anesthesia that I felt generally bad about myself. And so then a part of it is, you have to get yourself oriented like work life politically in a way but then … And that’s why I’ve been so promoting and excited of you doing what you’re doing right now because it becomes a vehicle. And so then like the vehicle is, the vehicle heals. Meet Delic is going to heal you, but you don’t need healing because you’re fine.

And so then I’m not running ego, and it’s kind of interesting. And the reason I say I’m not running ego, because I had this great conversation with a scientist, this PhD, the other day, Dr. Messier, she’s very smart. And so we were talking and I was like, “I feel like I know like 20%.” But if I’m honest, I feel like I know a lot less than that because … And I actually said this to you. The very beginning of when I met you, I said I have no fucking idea. And I remember it was somewhat triggering to you.

Jackee: Though I had so much hope that you would know.

MC: That I would know. And I did know, but I was kind of … But guess what? That’s actually a good one. That actually triggered both you and Matt because I was like, how did you not know?

Jackee: Your doctor is supposed to know.

MC: I think I do know more than anyone else, but I kind of feel like I have no idea. And in the sense that because what I’m trying to do is the totality of all of medicine. So I’m trying to do pain and psychology and all of internal medicine and all of neurology and energy medicine.

Jackee: Well, I would hope that most doctors would think that way. I think there’s a growing number of you, but it seems like just specializing in one thing makes no sense to me.

MC: Oh, I lost you for a second.

Jackee: It’s fine.

MC: Almost everyday we walk into the clinic and we don’t know exactly what’s going on because it’s so overwhelmingly complex, but then we just figure it out. And so as soon as I don’t know, I just call somebody. And so then I’m living in the certainty that there is a solution, but that I don’t really know what it is. But then as that evolves, there’s more and more that you do know. There’s a lot of stuff that I just know cold.

Jackee: Yeah, that you use the community of fellow physicians to help, which makes a lot of sense.

MC: Right. And so then my attitude is super humble, and that was the most important attitude if you were from Western Montana. It’s like, if you were not humble, I was like, get out of here.

Jackee: Right.

MC: And so then that was why I ran that attitude just like you did, the attitude which was, I’d rather be depressed than love myself. But now what I’m running is I’m just running this attitude, which is interesting and it’s kind of like, well, I’m doing by far the very best I possibly can with limited knowledge, with limited skills. And then I’m just almost going with the grace of God. And then magically, it basically almost always comes together.

And so then that’s in a wonderful place to be, and so then you’re not really in your ego, but you’re just chugging along and in a state of wonderment. And the state of wonderment then allows you … It’s not so much … So what I would say is I’m not in a state of really self-love, although maybe I’m going to get there, but I’m in a state of total wonderment that I’m able to live and do stuff.

Jackee: Yeah, and gratitude.

MC: And super gratitude. can’t even believe it because … And it’s the perfect skillset for this because I can’t even imagine. It’s like it couldn’t have been greater thing to do was to learn regenerative medicine and functional medicine. And then I think the whole world’s going to wake up. I had a call today with my compounding pharmacy guys because lysine blocks the viral replication, and then also, vitamin C is helpful, especially intravenously because you can give a lot of it, and it also may help treat sepsis, and it does all these things. And so I was like, God, we’ve got to get hospitals doing this because we could prevent people from getting on a ventilator.

Jackee: Well, those two things are relatively inexpensive, right?

MC: Yeah. It’s like pennies. Vitamin C is pennies, they just compound it. You know what I mean? And so they would do it. Their company is called Archway, and they would just do it for free. And so imagine I’ve got these guys, Archway Apothecary. So they would just make vitamin C for a hospital if they would do it to do a trial for free. And the cost is it costs the hospital about four dollars in IV tubing and stuff like that. And then maybe the hospitals are going to wake up now or maybe they’re going to wait until the next one, but I’m just telling you, they’re going to wake up and then we’re just going to knock on the door.

We just need voices to just keep up this message because I feel like it’s almost like it’s going to be a moment that’s going to define our age. And once we start to treat some people and dig some data on the combination of integrative things, the solution to this is primarily I think, going to be drug-based. But I think the supplements and vitamins may lower the rate of sepsis. This is my hypothesis. And we just have to get that conversation started.

Jackee: Got it. Well, I’m happy to do my part. Certainly, we definitely live in interesting times. And while everything seems to be breaking around us, the light is shining through the cracks.

MC: Well, that’s another good one.

Tell him how I told you that. That was a good one.

Jackee: No, you tell him. I don’t remember.

MC: You tell him because I-

Jackee: I don’t remember.

MC: You had a whole conversation about you were broken. And so then I did this whole visualization about how there was light inside you, and the light that shown through the cracks was more beautiful than ever because it was artistic. It was kind of like an aesthetic.

Jackee: Totally. Visualization is super key to the toolbox. And then just little bits. I just gather little bits from people like you and other smart people I’m so grateful to have in my life. Just they’ll say something or I’ll pick something up on a podcast and I’ll just put that in my coat and just walk around with it and pull it out when I need it. The idea that it’s a very simple idea, but that there is no light without shadows, there’s no shadows without light. Pretty basic grade three science class concepts, but we’re so busy, we forget. Yeah.

MC: As soon as you can call that out too, that’s a good one because I’ve been noticing it’s like those guys were kind of shady, In the past, that would have just totally triggered me. You know what I mean?

Jackee: Yeah.

MC: But it’s like, oh, they’re just kind of shady. They’re just … And so we had this conversation before, on the Savannah, there’s hyenas over there. Just don’t go over there because they’re really dangerous.

Jackee: The key is, and we should talk about this next time, the boundaries thing. I think the key is to not get stuck in the barbs or to not get stuck in the pool of hyenas or the group of hyenas. Don’t go over there. Just keep on keeping on. It’s a lot of people in the world, we serve a lot of different functions, we’re same but different, and it’s reasonable to assume that not all of our vibrations are going to match.

I think people get stuck in like you come across the vibration that’s like [inaudible 01:05:34], it doesn’t flow with your flow man, it’s a different genre of music, and you get stuck and you want to conceptualize it, and you want to understand why. But I don’t understand why. And that’s where the damage to your own psyche happens. So you just get in this fucking loop, but really, you can just accept it and then you just go like that.

MC: Yeah. Remember when you were young, if you met somebody especially at school, it was like you had to be friends. If your parents were friends, then you just had to be friends.

Jackee: I know what you mean, but I was quite a loner. I had imaginary friends because I think I didn’t probably like a lot of the people I came into contact with, but yeah.

MC: Okay. Good. So then that works even better for my story. So thank you. So then what happened is because you didn’t have a great framework for that, then all of a sudden, you busted out of that into a life. And then all of a sudden, you meet people and they’re expecting you to run with whatever vibration they’re running where then you’re like, oh, that’s not my vibration. But then there’s not a good way to say that, and so then that’s like, okay, I’m going to not look at people’s eyes.

Jackee: Right.

MC: Right?

Jackee: Right.

MC: Well, go ahead. Tell me what you think about that.

Jackee: I was just thinking about this two muppets in a part of the Muppet Crew, the two old men in the balconies that they’re just like, “We don’t like most things.” They’re just these two critics. They just have the most critical and real and logical things to say, but they’re just grumpy. And I get. I feel like that sometimes. My vibration doesn’t always match up with people a lot. So yeah, I was avoiding eye contact so I didn’t have to address that difference.

MC: Right. Okay. So then now, just tell me when you’re done internalizing that because I … Take your time.

Jackee: Well, another thing that came up was that I perhaps didn’t have the tools to address it. So my survival mechanism was pretty simple. It was like, okay, I’m just not going to look at it.

MC: Right. But so then as soon as you’re aware, you can diagnose that then you’re like, oh hey, I don’t want to do that.

Jackee: Right.

MC: Oh, that sounds really good, but I just … And so then all of a sudden now, as soon as you can do that, now you’re navigating your own trip, which is amazing because then you max in where the wild things are. Now, you can just take your ship and go wherever you want and do whatever you want with Matt Stang. And then what’s amazing about that is that then now you’re free.

Jackee: Yeah, except when Matt Stang wants to also direct my ship and where we’re going. Wait, we can be side by side. We can be ships side by side on similar paths.

MC: Yeah. I would say that Matt Stang, if I was going to have a cruise director, then he’s a pretty good cruise director [crosstalk 01:09:35].

Jackee: You know what, to be fair, you’re totally right. With this COVID thing, man, he’s been probably on average, two weeks ahead of everyone else in the world. Someone’s got to talk to this guy. He just sees it and calls it. Oh, reconnecting. There you are.

MC: I’m reconnected.

Jackee: Anyway.

MC: Why is he two weeks ahead? That’s how he is.

Jackee: It’s the Jewish brain. He’s got a wicked, fucking, super smart, connect the dots, see all the chess moves, weigh them, do it again, do it a different way, do it another way. It’s just that, the way his brain works.

MC: Okay. I got a good one for you then, so that’s a good one. So then that actually is how he runs his energy. Now then what’s amazing about that is that’s a great energy to run because then you’re running that energy and it’s very productive. Now, I’m running more of a wonderment kind of like, I don’t know what I’m running, but I do love it.

Jackee: You’re running like the Irish storyteller/you use the muscle.

MC: Yeah. So whatever I’m running, whatever it is. And then now guess what? And then you’re doing whatever you’re doing, right?

Jackee: Right.

MC: Now, all of a sudden, just like you could pick out an idea up on a podcasts, you could take a little Matt Stang and then use that on your boat.

Jackee: I got to tell you, he has taught me … I have a PhD in business, I’m a doctor in business, thanks to Matt Stang. Dr. Stang business associates. It’s so true. It’s beautiful.

MC: So then here’s my prayer and then we have to each give a musical quote.

Jackee: Let’s do it.

MC: I loved this conversation. And so then my prayer is that something that we said is interesting and hopeful and helpful, and that you can take it and add it to your toolbox, and then you can begin to connect to other people, begin to connect to yourself, and connect to that feeling in the future. No, almost everything basically, all biology can be reset. And then we’re all going to do it together. We’re going to be better than we ever were.

Jackee: Let’s do it. I love it.

MC: Okay. What music? What do you have for me?

Jackee: Oh, wait. I have a fun fact before that. You mentioned Meet Delic earlier. Meetdelic.com. Go to meetdelic.com. The first step is psychedelic wellness of it. No. So fun fact about the branding behind meetdelic.com and the logo itself is music inspired by a Talking Heads cover album and a James Taylor cover album that I saw in my Tesla, and then I just combined those two. So the color and the style are inspired by music because man, life is inspired by music and I love it. Also, I thought we should bring back a Janet Jackson vibe. Do you like Janet Jackson, doc?

MC: Kind of love Janet Jackson.

Jackee: Listen, first album ever, Michael Jackson, Bad, Easter … Well, I guess around this time, I’m like 5:00 I wake up and I’ve got a Michael Jackson Bad album, which of course led to my love for Madonna, my love for Janet Jackson. And that just whatever you want to say about Michael Jackson, he’s been preaching, he and his family, and that tribe have been preaching a lot of really positive things for a really long time.

So my song is State Of The World by Janet Jackson, which is not necessarily an A side track, but those who know, know. And I’ll just read the chorus for you because it’s super, super … It’s early 90s. State Of The World, Janet Jackson. Drugs and crime spreading on the streets. People can’t find enough to eat. Now our kids can’t go out and play. That’s the state of the world today. (singing). Shout out to Janet Jackson.

MC: Yeah, that’s amazing.

Jackee: All right. That’s mine. What’s yours?

MC: Okay. So I want to do I’ll Be there. And you know what’s interesting is because I was like, well, I thought I’m quoting Michael Jackson the other day because I was listening to I’ll Be There, and I thought, I can’t say that anymore. And then if you said, what is America? America is like Motown. And in a way, it’s kind of like that James Taylor moment. Motown was like, we’re going to take care of you, and it also socially disadvantaged people. You know what I mean? And yet they were all there. It was like this … To me, it’s like the greatest moment in America as like Motown. Did you ever see that movie, Standing in the Shadows of Motown?

Jackee: No.

MC: Okay. I’m going to give you a money back guarantee if you watch that.

Jackee: Do you hear that, folks? Money back guarantee. What was the name of that movie again?

MC: Standing in the Shadow of Motown. So it says, you and I must make a pact, we must bring salvation back. Where there is love, I’ll be there. I just know … And just the funnest thing in the world that I’ve ever done is coming on and talking to you and people and doing this, and we’re going to be here. And because we don’t know how to sing like Michael Jackson, although you do.

Jackee: I don’t know about that.

MC: But we’re going to be here and this could be amazing.

Jackee: It’s going to be amazing. Doc, love you. Thanks.

MC: Love you.

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