A Comic, Cosmic Sensibility: A Conversation with Tom Robbins, Part 2

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Tom Robbins, bestselling author of nine perennially popular novels, as well as a book of short writings and a recent memoir, has been called everything from “Mark Twain with an illegal smile” to “the most dangerous writer in the world.” Most recently, he’s collaborated on a musical adaptation of one of his novels (the soundtrack of which was released on October 12, with vocal talent that includes Jon Cryer and Belinda Carlisle, among others). I caught up with him to hear more about this project, and found him as nimble as ever as we wound up in a wide-ranging conversation about storytelling, God, creativity, language, laughter, and politics. What follows is Part 2 of a 2-part interview (Part 1 can be found here).

 

Tony Vigorito: Let’s hear more about this miracle, figuratively or literally. Given the manner in which the ecological noose is tightening apace with the death grip of obsolete economic structures, humanity does seem to be approaching something resembling the sound barrier, with the whole aircraft shuddering and threatening to blow apart. Tremendous forces of greed and egotism are determined to impose ignorance, and weapons of mass mendacity and distraction and more formidable than ever. What way lies hope, or is it just an anthropocentric vanity to believe that we must be something other than an evolutionary cul-de-sac?

Tom Robbins: Were I to claim advance knowledge of the nature of any impending miracle, I’d be justifiably accused of spreading fake news (or deemed worthy of my very own padded cell). What follows, however, is a crumb of conjecture.

In his recent book, How to Change Your Mind, Michael Pollan reports that a number of extremely reputable institutions (medical and academic, in the U.S. and abroad) are currently engaged in serious psychedelic research. What if there were eventually to be widespread, legal, judicious — even enlightened — use of these natural, mind-changing sacraments, might not that tip the balance in favor of Mother Nature?

Of course, since winged rats will likely be circling Manhattan before that comes to pass, why don’t we conduct an experiment, consider an alternative? Rather than waiting and yearning for it, why don’t those of us concerned just start behaving as if that aforementioned miracle were already here?

 

It’s a comforting crumb of conjecture, and there may be more than a loaf of truth to it. After all, every other social movement from the era known as the Sixties has landed on the right side of history. So why pretend that there was nothing to be discovered on the neurological frontier, or that it was merely a foolhardy caprice? The question I’m driving at is this: Assuming that it’s even possible to describe, what is it that’s contained within these experiences that is so potentially transformative to our manner of being alive?

First, in regard to those “flying rats,” let me shoot down my fantasy that psychedelic usage might someday be “widespread.” As Hermann Hesse so accurately pointed out in Steppenwolf, “the magic theater is not for everyone.”

Apparently, chemicals in these substances activate receptors in our brains that otherwise lie dormant, doubtlessly for good reason as it would be virtually impossible to, say, operate machinery, write reports, wage wars, or bake cakes were they permanently operational.

For those who can accommodate it, the psychedelic experience is both prehistoric and futuristic, creating multiple insights that do not translate readily into language. They provide the imbiber a lens on his or her surroundings that is simultaneously microscopic, kaleidoscopic, and, well, let’s say “cosmo-scopic,” for want of a more scientific term. Certainly, it can (and frequently does) lend itself to spiritual interpretations. And though it dims in time, there remains enough of an imprint to alter (in a largely positive way) the manner in which one perceives so-called “reality.”

For example, when one’s consciousness travels inside the crown of a daisy, as did mine on my first LSD trip (it was like a cathedral made of mathematics and honey in there), one comes away sensing that every daisy in the field has an identity just as substantial as one’s own — and that cannot help but leave one more sensitive to the wonders and deeper meanings of the everyday natural world. That in turn sparks the nasty wish that those who trash our planet for profit might someday be toasting like marshmallows on the campfires of Hell. (Can’t you hear the little demons singing Kum Ba Yah?)

 

Whether meditatively or pharmacologically inspired, the capacity to experience life outside of a cultural description of it (not mistaking the map for the road, as it were) does indeed sound like an evolutionary bonanza with the potential to accelerate humanity out of an obsolete past and into a relevant future.

So, for all its utility and poetry, why do you suppose we are so vehement in our attachment to language, particularly the ideologies, identities, etc. — the “veils,” to use your concept from Skinny Legs and All — that it describes? Or to put it another way, why can’t language be a useful tool rather than an iron rule?

We humans live in language the way a spider lives in its web. Both our mundane daily experiences and our most lofty abstract ideas (often borrowed from other “spiders”) become entangled in the multitudinous strands of that web, some to be slowly digested, others left to shrivel or bloat.

The longer we live, the more tangled the web becomes, although even in our youth we can allow ourselves to gorge on certain “flies” (political ideologies, religious dogmas,  unattainable goals, or exaggerated notions of our abilities) that limit our evolution and distort the web.

Having said that, language remains our first invention (early tools and weapons were found, not made), our most ambitious, and at times our most grandiose. What is less appreciated is that the words themselves, transcending their utilitarian parameters, can be at least as important — and often more arresting — than the things or ideas they represent. Even professional writers frequently fail to recognize that language is not the frosting, it’s the cake.

So rather than there being too many perceptions that are beyond words, it may only be that after all this time there simply aren’t enough of us who, like Molly Bloom in Joyce’s Ulysses, can verbally turn something like a sordid seduction into a wild and winsome word-de-o. From my perspective, we, linguistically speaking, may have too many handy tools and not enough magic wands.

Sometimes, when a wand is sparking and our muse is smiling on us like a hot buttered croissant, we can use words to light up a page. Or a room. Even a mind — although admittedly not as brilliantly as those verbally transcendent entities that reside ever so humbly in certain mushrooms, cacti, or the scummy ergot that infects wheat and rye. But, we’ve already waddled through that minefield and it’s not even our home turf. Let’s count our toes and fingers and move on. 

 

The best relief from the self-serious web we too-often weave, it seems to me, is the anarchic domain of laughter. The anthropologist Margaret Mead even observed that laughter is humankind’s most distinctive emotional expression (and never mind hyenas, by the way, that’s just the sound they make). What are your thoughts on this most riotous of emotions?

While much laughter is of no more consequence than the braying of a jackass, some is indicative of a special understanding, even a kind of wisdom. Often enough, such laughter may strike onlookers as inappropriate — but that reaction itself is worth a good laugh.

Humor can be both a form of wisdom and a means of survival. A comic sensibility is often a cosmic sensibility, for it can open doors in consciousness that are closed to the sober and prudent. Within the realm of laughter, light and darkness often merge, leaving the laugher free of life’s perplexing dualities.

When Rama Krishna, supposedly the last known human to actually reach Nirvana and return, was asked what it was like there in the zone of ultimate consciousness, that which-of-which-there-is-no-whicher, he answered, “Laughter.” It’s challenging to wrap one’s mind around that, but doesn’t it sound more appealing than “pearly gates and streets paved with gold?” I’m a wee bit concerned, however, that so few visions of the absolute Absolute fail to mention jelly donuts.

 

It occurs to me that language and laughter share a good deal in common. Like laughter, much language “is of no more consequence than the braying of a jackass” (contemporary American politics springs to mind), while some language may paradoxically reveal an ineffable wisdom seeking to express itself. In both cases, however — whether it’s motivated by the jackass of narcissism or the cosmic laughter of ultimate consciousness — language seeks to create reality.

That said, what is the world you’re seeking to create with your use of language? And what is the most common misconception you encounter around your work?

You are correct, of course. While in the circus of human expression, laughter is customarily the red-nosed clown, language the daring aerialist on the high wire or flying trapeze, the roles are often reversed or even performed by the same entity, especially when imagination gets in the act. In fact, in the very best “shows,” comic genius and poetic genius are usually directed by imagination, the ultimate ringmaster.

Many — if not most — authors employ language to describe experience. My own goal is to actually provide an experience. I’d like to think that I write to twine ideas and images into big subversive pretzels of life, death, and goofiness on the chance that like the Trickster figure in tribal myths, they might help keep the world lively and give it the flexibility to endure. And I suspect that you may have a somewhat similar approach.

Among the ranks of the stuffy and clueless are a few wantwits who insist on tarring me with the old Day-Glo Sixties brush, never mind that only one of my nine novels (the first) is set in the 1960s. My second, Even Cowgirls Get the Blues, does take place in the Seventies during fallout from the counterculture revolution, but its themes (including sexual preying on women) are as relevant today as then — and the rest of my oeuvre covers many eras (including ancient Greece) and many locales (including the Afterlife). Well, as another writer once responded to misplaced criticism, “Let the jackals howl, the caravan rolls on.”

 

Indeed, it’s a howling sort of ignorance that would reduce the complexity of an artwork to a simple-minded category. Rolling on, then, I’m wondering if you can articulate how the spiritual reality we’ve discussed (the cosmic laughter of ultimate consciousness) meshes with active participation in, say, political reality, if at all?

Politics, even much liberal politics, is all wrapped up in ego the way a pig is wrapped in a blanket. Should the pig poot so hard it billows the blanket, children and halfwits will snicker. Otherwise, the political impulse (the desire to preside over property and make other people’s decisions for them) is only occasionally a source of mirth, and never ever ever invokes the sort of “cosmic” amusement of which you speak: a response to existence that in Zen is sometimes called the “god laugh.”

Almost daily there is existential folly so absurd that it invites a dismissive guffaw. Then there is the abrupt laugh of appreciation when we suddenly are reminded of all the wonder there is in the world. Such recognition usually occurs when we’ve followed an impulse to temporarily remove the mask that most of us wear every day. Alas, rarely does a politician (or the politically inclined) dare to take off that mask.

The party that would surely get my vote (and maybe even a contribution) is the one whose slogan is, “We’re making it all up.” Which, of course, they are. And where politics and religion are concerned, so is everybody else. 

 

Given the agonizing farce of American politics of late, I wonder if you have any words of wisdom to whisper? The herd is stirring, there’s a nervous shifting of hooves afoot. Is something happening here, or are we staring at our belly buttons instead of the sunrise?

Well, it’s a short trip from the belly button to the “clear light,” so one’s navel (as opposed to one’s lover’s navel) is a good place to start. Meditation, umbilical or mandala, can lead to elation, and elation can foster realization: specifically the realization that ultimately it’s all cosmic (there’s that word again) theater, all of it, and each of us should work on perfecting his or her role, on playing it with honesty, humor, and if possible, pizzaz.  

Meanwhile, if one’s role includes “voter,” then one must vote for the candidate with the fewest ties to corporate fascism (the current direction of government in the U.S.), the one with the least dorky haircut.

Me, I’m keeping an eye on the latest discoveries in astro-physics (gravitational waves, for example), lending moral support to young protesters in the streets — and sending out for jelly donuts.

* * *

Tony Vigorito is the author of three well-received novels, including his most recent Love and Other Pranks, which Tom Robbins called “the single wildest novel I’ve ever read.” Visit www.TonyVigorito.com.

 

Psychedelic Resources

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How to Store Shrooms: Best Practices
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Shroom Chocolate Recipes: How to Make Magic Mushroom Chocolates
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How-To Lemon Tek: Ultimate Guide and Recipe
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How to Intensify a Mushroom Trip
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How to Grow Magic Mushrooms: Step-by-Step
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How to Dry Magic Mushrooms: Best Practices
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Gold Cap Shrooms Guide: Spores, Effects, Identification
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Guide to Cooking with Magic Mushrooms
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2020 Election: The Decriminalize Psilocybin Movement
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Oregon’s Initiative to Legalize Mushrooms | Initiative Petition 34
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Canada Approves Psilocybin Treatment for Terminally-Ill Cancer Patients
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How to Use DMT Vape Pens
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DMT Resources
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Differentiating DMT and Near-Death Experiences
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DMT Research from 1956 to the Edge of Time
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DMT Extraction: Behind the Scientific Process
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Microdosing DMT & Common Dosages Explained
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DMT Art: A Look Behind Visionary Creations
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Changa vs. DMT: What You Need to Know
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5-MeO-DMT Guide: Effects, Benefits, Safety, and Legality
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4-AcO-DMT Guide: Benefits, Effects, Safety, and Legality
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The Ayahuasca Experience
Ayahuasca is both a medicine and a visionary aid. You can employ ayahuasca for physical, mental, emotional and spiritual repair, and you can engage with the power of ayahuasca for deeper insight and realization. If you consider attainment of knowledge in the broadest perspective, you can say that at all times, ayahuasca heals.

 

Trippy Talk: Meet Ayahuasca with Sitaramaya Sita and PlantTeachers
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The Therapeutic Value of Ayahuasca
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Microdosing Ayahuasca: Common Dosage Explained
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The Fatimiya Sufi Order and Ayahuasca
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Consideration Ayahuasca for Treatment of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
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Brainwaves on Ayahuasca: A Waking Dream State
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Cannabis and Ayahuasca: Mixing Entheogenic Plants
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Ayahuasca Retreat 101: Everything You Need to Know to Brave the Brew
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Ayahuasca Helps with Grief
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Ayahuasca Benefits: Clinical Improvements for Six Months
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Ayahuasca Culture: Indigenous, Western, And The Future
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Ayahuasca Guide: Effects, Common Uses, Safety
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Ayahuasca and the Godhead: An Interview with Wahid Azal of the Fatimiya Sufi Order
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Ayahuasca and the Feminine: Women’s Roles, Healing, Retreats, and More
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Special K: The Party Drug
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Ketamine is becoming a promising treatment for various mental health conditions. Read to learn how individuals can use ketamine treatment for eating disorders.

Ketamine Resources, Studies, and Trusted Information
Curious to learn more about ketamine? This guide includes comprehensive ketamine resources containing books, studies and more.

Ketamine Guide: Effects, Common Uses, Safety
Our ultimate guide to ketamine has everything you need to know about this “dissociative anesthetic” and how it is being studied for depression treatment.

Ketamine for Depression: A Mental Health Breakthrough
While antidepressants work for some, many others find no relief. Read to learn about the therapeutic uses of ketamine for depression.

Ketamine for Addiction: Treatments Offering Hope
New treatments are offering hope to individuals suffering from addiction diseases. Read to learn how ketamine for addiction is providing breakthrough results.

Microdosing Ketamine & Common Dosages Explained
Microdosing, though imperceivable, is showing to have many health benefits–here is everything you want to know about microdosing ketamine.

How to Ease a Ketamine Comedown
Knowing what to expect when you come down from ketamine can help integrate the experience to gain as much value as possible.

How to Store Ketamine: Best Practices
Learn the best ways how to store ketamine, including the proper temperature and conditions to maximize how long ketamine lasts when stored.

How To Buy Ketamine: Is There Legal Ketamine Online?
Learn exactly where it’s legal to buy ketamine, and if it’s possible to purchase legal ketamine on the internet.

How Long Does Ketamine Stay in Your System?
How long does ketamine stay in your system? Are there lasting effects on your body? Read to discover the answers!

How Ketamine is Made: Everything You Need to Know
Ever wonder how to make Ketamine? Read our guide to learn everything you need to know about the procedures of how Ketamine is made.

Colorado on Ketamine: First Responders Waiver Programs
Fallout continues after Elijah McClain. Despite opposing recommendations from some city council, Colorado State Health panel recommends the continued use of ketamine by medics for those demonstrating “excited delirium” or “extreme agitation”.

Types of Ketamine: Learn the Differences & Uses for Each
Learn about the different types of ketamine and what they are used for—and what type might be right for you. Read now to find out!

Kitty Flipping: When Ketamine and Molly Meet
What is it, what does it feel like, and how long does it last? Read to explore the mechanics of kitty flipping.

MDMA & Ecstasy Guide: Effects, Common Uses, Safety
Our ultimate guide to MDMA has everything you want to know about Ecstasy from how it was developed in 1912 to why it’s being studied today.

How To Get the Most out of Taking MDMA as a Couple
Taking MDMA as a couple can lead to exciting experiences. Read here to learn how to get the most of of this love drug in your relationship.

Common MDMA Dosage & Microdosing Explained
Microdosing, though imperceivable, is showing to have many health benefits–here is everything you want to know about microdosing MDMA.

Having Sex on MDMA: What You Need to Know
MDMA is known as the love drug… Read our guide to learn all about sex on MDMA and why it is beginning to makes its way into couple’s therapy.

How MDMA is Made: Common Procedures Explained
Ever wonder how to make MDMA? Read our guide to learn everything you need to know about the procedures of how MDMA is made.

Hippie Flipping: When Shrooms and Molly Meet
What is it, what does it feel like, and how long does it last? Explore the mechanics of hippie flipping and how to safely experiment.

How Cocaine is Made: Common Procedures Explained
Ever wonder how to make cocaine? Read our guide to learn everything you need to know about the procedures of how cocaine is made.

A Christmas Sweater with Santa and Cocaine
This week, Walmart came under fire for a “Let it Snow” Christmas sweater depicting Santa with lines of cocaine. Columbia is not merry about it.

Ultimate Cocaine Guide: Effects, Common Uses, Safety
This guide covers what you need to know about Cocaine, including common effects and uses, legality, safety precautions and top trends today.

NEWS: An FDA-Approved Cocaine Nasal Spray
The FDA approved a cocaine nasal spray called Numbrino, which has raised suspicions that the pharmaceutical company, Lannett Company Inc., paid off the FDA..

The Ultimate Guide to Cannabis Bioavailability
What is bioavailability and how can it affect the overall efficacy of a psychedelic substance? Read to learn more.

Cannabis Research Explains Sociability Behaviors
New research by Dr. Giovanni Marsicano shows social behavioral changes occur as a result of less energy available to the neurons. Read here to learn more.

The Cannabis Shaman
If recreational and medical use of marijuana is becoming accepted, can the spiritual use as well? Experiential journalist Rak Razam interviews Hamilton Souther, founder of the 420 Cannabis Shamanism movement…

Cannabis Guide: Effects, Common Uses, Safety
Our ultimate guide to Cannabis has everything you want to know about this popular substances that has psychedelic properties.

Cannabis and Ayahuasca: Mixing Entheogenic Plants
Cannabis and Ayahuasca: most people believe they shouldn’t be mixed. Read this personal experience peppered with thoughts from a procannabis Peruvian Shaman.

CBD-Rich Cannabis Versus Single-Molecule CBD
A ground-breaking study has documented the superior therapeutic properties of whole plant Cannabis extract as compared to synthetic cannabidiol (CBD), challenging the medical-industrial complex’s notion that “crude” botanical preparations are less effective than single-molecule compounds.

Cannabis Has Always Been a Medicine
Modern science has already confirmed the efficacy of cannabis for most uses described in the ancient medical texts, but prohibitionists still claim that medical cannabis is “just a ruse.”

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