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Ask Dr. Cook Ep. 5 Triggers, Trauma, and Gratitude

Ask Dr. Cook Ep. 5 Triggers, Trauma, and Gratitude
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I check-in with Dr. Cook and find gratitude for a recent trauma I experienced with the CEO of a well known psychedelic Organization. During the episode, you’ll hear about what the patriarchy feels like from within the psychedelic space. I explain what happened in the intro and Dr. Cook and I process some of it during the call. This is a great episode to listen to if you’re feeling sad or in a hole and can’t get out! Moral of the story = don’t create false idols.

Jackee: Hi y’all thanks for listening to Delic Radio, I’m Jackee Stang… That was a song originally written by Philadelphia songwriters, John Madara and David White and recorded by Lesley Gore in 1963; Lesley was 17 years old when she recorded that song. An anthem, a feminist anthem, for me super pertinent this week. This week I learned a deep lesson about false idols in the psychedelic space, and while it hurt, it taught me, gave me the sort of kick in the ass that we sometimes need when we’re on our way to finding our voice and to helping others, which of course is what I’m doing, that’s where my heart is at least.

On today’s episode I talk to our friend, Dr. Matt Cook about my trauma and how that relates to a COVID-19 world, and how it relates to my body physically. For about a year now I’ve spent working to prove myself in the psychedelic space; as an entrepreneur I’ve already proven myself, but because… Let me just start at the beginning. It’s best to start at the beginning. Thank you Glinda, The Good Witch of the North, it’s always best to start at the beginning, right? Wizard of Oz shout out. So I have been lucky enough, I hope many of you have as well, please tell me about it, to have had several mentors in my professional life.

My original male mentor was not a good mentor at all, but of course I’m grateful for that trauma, and that taught me and sent me on the road that I’m on today, but I’ve had many professional mentors who taught me, and who I learned from so greatly and so deeply, that I have so much deep reverence and respect for that relationship, for that wisdom, for the gifts that they gave me, that as a good student would, I place a lot of respect and reverence to people from time to time. Sometimes this is warranted and sometimes it’s not; we used to live in a really busy, fast-paced world, and traumas, or the pain of traumas in my experience are often as a result of each one of us conflating one pain with another pain, and forming narratives in our head that aren’t necessarily based in reality or truth.

For example, what happened to me in high school isn’t necessarily the same exact trauma that you experience 15 years later. Say you get bullied when you’re in grade school in the sandbox, and you get bullied then again when you’re 25 years old, it’s not the same exact experience, but we can take the original pain, the original sin, and build synapses in our psyche that… because our brain wants to make sense of things. We have this amazing highly functional operating system where our neuro-pathways want to organize what’s going on, and sometimes it gets it wrong. A lot of my unwinding of my trauma has come as a result of breaking apart those neuro pathways that are wrong paths that don’t lead to anywhere but the oven, as it did for poor Hansel and Gretel.

I’ve been studying psychedelics for about 22 years, it’s a big part of my life, huge part of my culture met; met my husband and we bonded immediately over that, so it’s part of my lifestyle. But I only just started a company a year ago, Delic, as a creative outlet to educate people, and to open more doors to a mainstream audience to psychedelic culture, because I believe so adamantly that it’s not an elitist culture and that for those who are interested, belong. You belong by sheer fact that you’re human. Congratulations, welcome to the human race, you’re born, and therefore you’re a part of the psychedelic culture, whether you like it or not.

It can be limited and limiting for people at times for various reasons, some good, some bad, and I came into this really wanting to work collectively with the few small entities that exist. It’s a year ago now, there’s many more entities that exist, so I’m talking in hindsight. You know their names, I don’t name names, but let’s say ‘X’ organization was one in particular that I worked really hard to align with. I had come into this whole thing thinking, “Oh well, the person at the top of ‘X’ organization was somehow to be idolized.” I didn’t even know him really, I knew of his work. It’s been a really painful year of working to prove myself, in a way that didn’t need to happen. Ladies and gentlemen, you get to choose who you speak to. You get to choose who’s important, and who’s not. You do have the power. We forget that. I forget that all the time, but ultimately it only matters if you say it matters.

So, to be candid, I spent a year focusing on things that don’t actually matter, instead of my mission, which is to create and carve the future of psychedelics for new people and for all people, as opposed to a select few. And I experienced something this week with the head of ‘X’, who… Let’s just say, the misogyny in psychedelics is alive and well, and I don’t want to turn off the gentlemen listening, this is not a feminist rant. I’m not a feminist, even if I was, it would be okay, but I don’t even know what that means, I couldn’t name one feminist book. But I have 15 years of working in corporate America, and I have seen the dark underbelly of the thumb that is the masculine side of our species, that has been running things for far too long now. And as we’ve seen in the buildup to this COVID epidemic, but as we’re seeing now as things start to shift, the earth was done with that and ready for a more balanced approach and opening the doors up to a feminine, less egoic, less aggressive, less kill or be killed attitude.

Naturally, because we’re talking about psychedelics, these substances that ultimately, while sometimes producing challenging experiences, are good, I believe that they’re good and that they produce good things and that they help people. They helped me. They have helped me. I walked into this space thinking that everyone was going to be prepared and had really worked on themselves. And I think, and I don’t want to over-generalize because again, we can build these things up into being big giant bubbles and monsters, and I can do that better than the next guy, but really we’re talking about like five people in a sea of millions. The good always outweighs the bad in my experience, and it does so in this case, but I’m telling you the story because it was important for me to learn the lesson: that ultimately it’s me. Ultimately, it’s my voice that matters. Ultimately, it’s my mission that matters and that’s where the strength is.

I encourage all of you to do the work that you have to do, and the prescription is different for everybody because we’re very much the same, but different. And all I want for myself is what I want for all of you, and that’s to lead from within and not attach false importance on to people who don’t deserve it. Especially energy that turns out to be aggressive and masculine and bullying. There’s basically a group of old guards in the psychedelic space who are bullies. It’s mostly dominated by white men. Again, I’m not hating on white men, I’m married to a white man. I’m white, so I’m a white privileged person and I’m not hating on a gender. It’s just a data point, and a data point that’s relevant to the shift that we’re all feeling, which is to diversify that data point and get out from under the thumb of that data point.

I, never in a million years, because of the story I had built in my head, would have imagined that this person at the head of ‘X’ was also perpetuating this attitude of, “You get in line little girl, you get in line, you do what I tell you to do or else”. And I allowed him to do that. I allowed him to do that and I allowed him to think that I cared, but guess what? Some of you know me, some of you don’t, ain’t nobody going to tell me what to do. Fuck you, I don’t do what you tell me. Truth be told that gets me into trouble, because we live in a civilized society and when you are verbose and push against the grain, you get burned a lot, but I’m also really tough and it’s hard to hurt me.

So, what happened was I was instructed… Basically I received an email, I want to be super honest with you guys about this, but not name names. The world is dying in a way; the world is shifting, people are dying, dead bodies everywhere is a thing. It’s so fucking real. We all feel it. I mean, I’m sitting here staring at the ocean. I’m so blessed. I’m so privileged. I’m doing everything I can to work on myself so that when this is over, I can provide whatever small drop of good in the world that other people who are not as privileged don’t have the opportunity to do. I’m working on myself to become a better community member for everyone else. That is my fucking duty. And yet we all feel the visceral weight of the shift.

The last two weeks my mind has mostly been on the pain that our brothers and sisters are feeling from losing people. And while death is definitely a part of life and we don’t really deal with that, I don’t think in a healthy way, in Western societies and America. Death is a part of life, but also it doesn’t extinguish the actual grieving that people feel, that loved ones feel; we all have our older parents and grandparents, and people we care about who we want to spend more time with. At the end of this, hundreds of thousands of people are going to pass away that definitely wouldn’t have passed away before this virus was introduced to our system. That is humbling, and it’s real, and so like most of you, that’s where my mind has been. Like, “How can I process that and help? How can I grieve for my brothers and sisters?”.

At the same time, we’re all doing business, doing our best to function, and I get an email from ‘X’ making a false libelous claim about saying that… You’re not going to believe it, it’s so ridiculous, I can’t make this shit up. Not that I had made a false claim about them. Not that I had made a false claim about the head of ‘X’, but that there was a line in one of my marketing descriptions that never before has there been an event like this in the venue like this. I don’t even know, but when I saw the email I had a panic attack because I had been receiving passive aggressive bullying bullshit from people at ‘X’ for about a year now.

Again, I don’t know any of these people. I don’t actually know them and they don’t actually know me, so it’s all these stories and drama. And of course, what people do to you has nothing to do with you. It’s really hard to forget that; or it’s really easy to forget, hard to remember, but what people do is about them, and yet I’m a super sensitive empathic person, so it builds up, it builds up and I feel attacked. So I see this email and they’re attacking like a half sentence. They made a false claim about an alleged false claim, which is ultimately libelous and they’re wrong., I’m sure many of you know about it, but go to, it’s the first ever psychedelic wellness summit with that lineup, in that space, on that date, in this city, ever. I moved it from May 2nd to August. We’re super excited to have it, but it’s not the only thing we do, and if it turns out that we can’t have it, we’re going to turn it into something else. So at this point, just to give you context, we’re not thinking about MeetDelic, my team went through the rigamarole of moving the event, like many other live events, and that was very stressful, but also easy. So we weren’t really thinking about that, we’re thinking, how can we help the world? How can we use our platform to help?

And so it was very shocking to me to get this email from out of nowhere, making such a fucking absurd claim, when the truth is that it is true. I don’t need to explain marketing to these people. I don’t have time to do that. They obviously need to know, because companies like mine exist because they weren’t doing it, but I was so taken aback. The ridiculousness of what the email said aside, I was so taken aback that in this world where we are all shell shocked; never before in most of our lifetimes has this happened, and people are dying, and I think about my husband and, “Oh my God, he just turned 40”, and I need him, and I need my parents, and some of my favorite people work in healthcare. My stepfather’s a physician, my mom’s a former nurse, one of our best friends is a doctor, so I start thinking personally.

Then compound that with what you see on the news with all these people who are actually going through terror and horror, and I think that in a time like this, that this organization I had built up in my head for basically… I was being lazy. I don’t actually know deeply, personally, the head of ‘X’ and I don’t know any of the other people on the email either. They’ve never actually met me. I can only go from their behavior. My behavior to them has always been one of open arms. My husband spent 15 years doing them favors at High Times Cannabis Cups, they’ve asked us for many favors in recent years that we’ve obliged because we’re also donors to ‘X’.

So to receive this email was so overwhelming. I thought how could they be focused on that right now? How could it be possible that this… Oh, and mind you though, the head of ‘X’ had a female minion to do it. Yep. He couldn’t do it himself till I responded of course. How could this be? What this organization is focused on, how in the world could this be possible? Not only is it bullshit and not real, but it’s so off key and so off-kilter from the tone of the world, I was heartbroken. I was like, “Why did I give this organization my time, my company’s time?”. Truth be told I wrote back, and I was angry. Never write back when you’re angry, for the most part.

I have many, many years of practicing breathing before responding in emotion in a business sense, but I had really been taking it in the ass from these people for about a year. Again, that’s my fault I know now, but I am not trying to play the victim, I’m just trying to be honest. So I replied back to ‘X’ minion, I showed them a picture of an ICU unit and told them that I thought that they were ridiculous and how dare they? And that as a donor, I couldn’t believe that they treated their donors this way. Then about four days later I get an email back from ‘X’ head himself.

I didn’t read it honestly, because I had been done with it. I sort of mourned over the weekend, I’d have been done with it at that point. But I got a key point or two from an advisor, and I responded, “Dear person’s name. Thank you. I do apologize if my remarks seemed defensive. Receiving unsolicited advice from an outside organization to which I am a donor regarding an alleged false claim naturally felt like an attack, as I’m sure you can understand as an elder of your own community, which I’m sure has weathered its share of difficulties. As with any friends and colleagues, we are naturally bound to disagree at times, but let me assure you, there’s one point in your letter that we definitely agree on. I have learned a lot from this correspondence. Please stay safe during these difficult times and wishing you the best of luck with your organization in this new world”. Well, that was my response to this super long email that I’m told was wrought with misogyny and control. Here’s the thing guys, you don’t get to fucking control us. Psychedelic wellness is for everyone who wants it.

… and men don’t get to control women and men don’t get to control the psychedelic space. So here’s a newsflash, we don’t need you. We are the future. We are the now, a whole new world, and as it pertains to, whatever that event is to become, I promise you that we will provide you speakers who have integrity. We will provide you speakers who are deserving. And I’ve removed people who do not align with the mission of positivity and drama free. I’ve removed people who are bullies and I will continue to do so. And ultimately what I present will represent goodness and light, and I’ll be grateful for the shadows that I had to experience along the way to learn the lessons. Because ultimately that’s what it’s about. And ultimately guys, you are the mentor. You are the guru, you are the light. And I’m telling you this story so that you can really feel that. And thank you for listening to Delic Radio, we love you. I hope you enjoyed this episode.

Dr. Matt Cook: How are you?

Jackee: Well, I’m alive and healthy and I don’t currently have COVID, that I know of. So that’s good. Mentally, I wish I could say… I wish that I could come on and just be like, Ben Greenfield and all these other… And Matt Cook and just high energy all the time and just like, good, I’m doing it. My cytokine levels or whatever… Is this that even a word? Cytokine?

Dr. Matt Cook: Cytokine

Jackee: My cytokine levels are A-okay. But, mentally I’m super… I’m in a hole. I’m in a dark hole, but I’ve been here before and, one foot in front of the other.

MC: What do you think the mental hole is about?

Jackee: I was triggered. It was an emotional trigger.

MC: Oh. Well, it’s interesting, because… I don’t know, we were having this conversation the other day, a little bit. Everybody that I’m talking to is a little triggered.

Jackee: Yeah. Yeah. I think I was triggered because someone else was triggered, but I learned a huge lesson and so that’s a blessing and it’s relevant to my mental health story.

MC: Do you want to know something that’s interesting?

Jackee: Yeah.

MC: I’m going to give you a Mulligan for being triggered.

Jackee: What is that?

MC: Oh, so in golf, there’s this thing. Let’s say they count the number of strokes that you hit, each time you hit the ball it counts and so you want to hit it the least amount of times possible. But there’s this expression in golf where, let’s say somebody doesn’t hit a very good drive, then they’ll say, “You know what? I’ll give you a Mulligan,” and then you just get a second shot for free.

Jackee: Right.

MC: And so, what’s interesting is, I was going to give you a Mulligan anyways, but for sure I’m giving you a free pass for being triggered.

Jackee: Thanks.

MC: And it’s this interesting idea of, if you can start to … And I’m talking to myself when I’m talking to you, is to then start to give yourself a little bit of a free pass. And then those triggers, it’s kind of interesting, because I was telling you, I generally never get triggered and I did get triggered by somebody also yesterday.

Jackee: Right.

MC: And so then I was really trying to figure out what to do, because I had a little bit of … We were talking about righteous indignation. I kind of wanted to just pile on my attitude, and I didn’t have any time, but I just called this person and was super nice to them for 10 minutes. And that was interesting for me, and it was also interesting for me because I realized, strategically, I should have never had that call yesterday. Because I knew that they were not going to agree and I knew that they were going to trigger me. And I was probably going to say something I shouldn’t.

Jackee: Right. Your gut told you shouldn’t have the call, but you did it anyway.

MC: But I did it and just because I was kind of pissed. And so I just said, “You know what? Fuck it. I’m going to do this.”

Jackee: Yeah. I’ve been there a million times.

MC: And it was interesting because that I was like, we were talking about it today during meetings, and I was like, you know what? I knew I shouldn’t have done that, plus I’m probably the… Sometimes I’ll see other people who are able to negotiate their way through stuff and they won’t get triggered. They’ll just be like, well, I wish we could do it, but we just can’t do it because these are what the rules are. And somebody doesn’t like that answer and so they’re kind of triggering, and they’re trying to get under your skin. But the people who are good at this, and I’m commenting on it because I’m aware of it, but I’m not amazing at this skill. Because I’ve historically let people get under my skin and then I just kind of let them have it if their behavior is not appropriate.

Jackee: Right, because you’re an empathic person.

MC: Right. And we’re empathic in the same way and so if they try to trigger me, I generally invite that in and go after them. And then ask me how many times out of 100 that works out for me.

Jackee: How many?

MC: I think that probably works out for me zero times out of 100.

Jackee: Right, because that is, generally the person on the other end doesn’t have the capacity to feel the passion that you have for whatever triggered you, whatever is driving you. And so it’s an irrelevant conversation because you’re just not speaking the same language.

MC: Right. So it’s a relevant conversation and yet… It’s kind of interesting, this is an interesting conversation for me with you, because I have the same problem that you have. So then it might actually be useful, because what I’m doing is I’m just being vulnerable saying, “Oh yeah, it’s cool that we did that yesterday too.”

Jackee: Yeah. Except I’m starting to reframe it less as just a blanket problem.

MC: It’s not a problem.

Jackee: It’s a problem for me in a way that… It’s a greater power that B is trying to tell me something very important, and as stubborn as I can be sometimes, it takes a few painful reminders of hello, hello, hello, I’m here trying to tell you something. And I realize this time what I wasn’t listening to, it was always the same message. It’s, you are everything you need. Okay? And so it takes, I guess, a lot of people a lifetime, if not even then, to listen to that voice. But in my experience, and the hard lessons that I learn interpersonally, it’s that message. It’s not about the other person, it’s that I walked into a situation that ultimately hurt me because I didn’t value myself enough to begin with.

And this whole year, it’s been about a year now that I’ve spent learning those hard lessons as an entrepreneur in a new industry, and finally came to the realization that, yeah, it’s annoying to waste a year. Or to feel like you wasted a year. But the prescription is different for everyone. And sometimes you don’t, like for me, I know the feeling, the voice inside, telling you, “Oh, I shouldn’t have that phone call. I know what’s going to happen on that phone call.” Are you doing an IV right now?

MC: I’m thoroughly doing an IV, which is-

Jackee: I love it. You have a blue glove on, because safety first.

MC: Safety first. And so I love that you just said that because, for me, it’s just getting more effective. And so these are just… Then this is just an opportunity for both of us to be more effective.

Jackee: To be more effective and I think, bringing it back to the physical health conversation, it’s so relevant to this emotional conversation, because the more on point your body is in terms of firing the way that it’s built to fire, and you’re in flow state and everything’s rocking. The more that’s happening, the more you can be emotionally, I think, you can be emotionally aware and present. Okay? And so for me, a lot of my lessons come out of nowhere. So I don’t even feel that initial, I shouldn’t do that, I know I shouldn’t do that, and I do it anyway. A lot of times I get just an email out of nowhere from an asshole, trying to dig at me for whatever their reasons are. But it triggers me and then I go down a rabbit hole and spin out because I’m passionate. And yeah, I mean it’s a longer story than that. There’s much deeper lesson in this one, for me, that’s more about my voice and the patriarchy and all of those deep conversations.

MC: Well, but like you told me, I would say of all the things that you’ve ever told me. One of, maybe my favorite, was… I was like, I don’t know, but I was talking to you and Matt one day. And then I was like, what’s the title of your book? And you said, Tons of Misogyny.

Jackee: A shit ton of misogyny. It’s true and I’m not even a feminist. I don’t even know what that is. I don’t read feminist literature. I don’t ascribe to that box, but so many of my professional lessons come as a result of facing misogyny at the cost of feeling super alone and isolated and scared and confused and sad and all of these things, that generally go along with being an entrepreneur anyway. But there’s a little extra element to it when you’re a female and it’s this quiet veil that isn’t always… You can’t always articulate what it is, but you see it and you feel it. And in my case, it takes men, actually, men who I love in my life to point it out to me. And they’re like, “Oh no, that’s a man trying to control you.”

And in the psychedelic space, it’s interesting because there’s… I mean, you think about the top five most recognizable psychedelic, influential names, and they’re all male, they’re all white men. And the space, in general, is pretty lacking in diversity. Or at least the above ground space, I think. And probably the underground space too. And it’s always shocking to me considering the subject matter, because psychedelics and plant medicines have the potential to really hack through that kind of an energy. Hack through that power trip vibration, and yet it’s so rampant in the current psychedelic space that it can throw me, every now and then.

MC: Listen to this one. This is so good, because it’s interesting … It’s embarrassing for me to say this one too, I was basically not really very aware that misogyny, or just discrimination against women, existed. Because I’m just doing whatever I was doing, you know what I mean? And then I became aware of it and then I realized it was everywhere. And then, plus the PTSD work that I do, all of a sudden then the last three or four years, all of a sudden I started seeing all kinds of people. And so then I realized this is totally rampant. There may have been an edit there, I realized it’s totally rampant. And so then-

Jackee: No, we’re just going to leave it in.

MC: But so then, what happens is like, you told me that line. And so then I probably told 20 or 50 women. I’m like, “Oh, I got this friend of mine. And she told me that the title of her biopic is going to be, “Tons of Misogyny.” But then we realized she’s going to be okay, and then everyone smiled because it acknowledges that it exists. It acknowledges that it’s real. And then what happens is, these conversations that I’m having with you, I have this conversation every single day in my life.

And so then what I started doing is I started to, I was telling you this yesterday, I’ve just started telling people, “Oh, just go listen to my podcast with Jackee.” Because how you feel millions and millions of women feel just like you do. And so then, and this is my defining idea of talking to you like this, is I think what’s going to happen is, is you’re going to start to feel super supported by other people. And then you’re going to become a beacon of, it’s okay to be Jackee.

Jackee: I hope so. And that’s all we really want. It’s like, yeah, most women feel that way, but we don’t talk about it. Just like men, you don’t really talk about your gender shit with each other either. I don’t think. You’re out golfing, giving each other… What was that?

MC: A Mulligan. We’re giving each other Mulligans because we know that we’re kind of, somewhat failures, but we’re going to make ourselves feel a little bit better about it.

Jackee: Yeah. And I’m going to get there. I feel down today because I care so much, because hard lessons really fucking hit me in the face super hard. And yet I feel now even more certain that I’m going to get where I want to be, and that is through all of this fucking bullshit. It’s just really scary and we’re meant to … I don’t know where I picked up along the line, this feeling of needing to have idols or, as I call them now, false idols. But I got into this habit because of misogyny and because of, whatever, father stuff or just not having a lot of confidence growing up. Thinking that I needed to… On the one hand, it was a scribing narratives to people in an ideal way that wasn’t necessarily true to their real nature, but also just having mentors.

If you’re lucky enough to have even one really good mentor, which I’ve had maybe two, maybe three so far. And that’s the human condition. We teach each other, hopefully, that’s what we do. The older people teach younger people and that’s how we get through life. That’s how we evolve. That’s how we get better. And if you’re lucky enough to have really good mentors, and you’re a good student, you feel so much gratitude for that human interaction. That rare intimacy that I… in my case I would take that gratitude and occasionally I would conflate it to other people who I was putting in that mentor box, but didn’t deserve it. Because I didn’t really know them. And they weren’t actually my mentors.

And I did that this year with someone who, it’s kind of a big name in the psychedelic space, and realized that it was all just this narrative I had created in my head. That he was not actually this … I didn’t even know him and he’s not really even worthy of my reverence in that way. And then I had a moment of realization where he shared his true cards and he turned out to be this man behind the curtain, another Oz figure. And again, I don’t know him, I’m sure he’s a nice person in his private life, but professionally the way he showed his hand was super misogynistic and kind of like I’m the king of this castle and you must bow under my thumb and who the fuck are you, Jackee Stang? And it was like, okay, Jackee, you have to use your own voice. You can’t constantly live or die by other people’s voices. And a really good way to do that is to get your fucking gut healthy. To get your body right. So that you can emotionally regulate.

MC: That’s a good one. That’s a good one. So, you know how there’s this idea like, oh, you’re going to be okay?

Jackee: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MC: I think what happens is sometimes… I love how I’ve got this blue glove here. But, sometimes I feel like what happens is, the story that we tell ourselves is that there’s somebody that came into our life that might be our ticket to freedom. Often that’s someone who’s in that mentor-ish box. And so if there’s this person that’s in the mentor-ish box, we put them way up on this pedestal because we’re thinking that if we’re in this relationship with them, and they’re with us, that we’re going to be okay. And so then all of a sudden, all of our hopes and dreams are pinned on them helping us. Now, the reality is that they’re probably just some mildly helpful person, and it may work out and it may not work out. Probably 50/50.

But we conflate that a little bit. And so then, managing those expectations is difficult because we’re really trying to pin… We’re trying for this idea that it’s all going to be okay. But then, interestingly, that is my alternate perspective is that you just run the energy like everything’s going to be perfect. It’s going to be amazing. I think that’s how I came up with it, because I’m almost just saying, “Oh, whether this guy or this woman or whoever your people are, whether it works out or not, you’re basically going to be great.”

Jackee: And so how do you, what is a hack to… Cause, I mean, I’ve not been actually diagnosed with anything specific when it comes to mental condition. But when I get into these deep, empathetic, sad spots, being able to say pull myself out and say, “Nope, everything’s going to be okay, it’s going to be great.” Being able to make that switch is impossible when I’m deep down in. Okay. It almost feels… It’s not even an option, I can’t even see it. So, it’s like figuring out what that is and finding hacks to like, “Okay, I’m in this spiral, what do I do now? What practical thing can I do to stop the spiraling out, to stop the bleeding?”

MC: Stop the bleeding. That’s a good one.

Jackee: Yeah. I thought you might like that one.

MC: Probably I would say put a tourniquet on. So, then this is the thing, I think there’s a little bit… Part of it is just skills like me recognizing… Last night I recognized that I shouldn’t call this person, but I did anyways.

Jackee: Right.

MC: So then now, what’s going to happen is tomorrow if that happens, it’s soon enough and I’m going to be like, “You know what, I’m the worst person to have this call. I’m going to have Barb call them.” You know what I mean?

Jackee: Yeah.

MC: And so then part of that is a little bit of strategy. Part of that is just… And I think if you had four or five of those things and then right when it happened, if you called me, if we processed through it, I think you would realize… I almost always feel like by the time I’m done talking with you, we come to some realization that whoever this is isn’t worth the time that took to talk about them.

Jackee: Right.

MC: But at the time, and I’m not saying this 50% to you and 50% to me, at the time it seems just like total chaos. And so there’s a… the hack is to suspend disbelief just enough to have this conversation with me or somebody who’s neutral. Matt – He’s kind of neutral. He’s operationally, he’s kind of like, “I like what we said.” He doesn’t care. We would both be wrong if it just meant that we’ve got to dinner on time, you know?

Jackee: Right. But that’s all… in this case that doesn’t work, because you want somebody who’s an empathetic person, but yeah, I know what you mean. But not everybody has that, I guess more so maybe now that we’re all stuck at home and we can call each other.

MC: Right. But, so that’s because… so then I think this one is like a self knowledge thing because it’s… this one is a little bit like replaying the game tape. They talk about this in football. So, what happens is, there’s the football game on Sunday.

Jackee: Yes.

MC: And then do you know about this?

Jackee: I was a cheerleader doc. I understand

MC: Thank God. Okay. So then, I’m obviously not telling you anything that you don’t know, but so then what happens is…

Jackee: Can we replay the tape?

MC: …then they played that and they keep watching that tape. And then they’re just sitting there and kind of talking about it like, “Oh, you probably should have gone to the right here because he just tackled you.”

Jackee: And I know what you mean. And so, it just occurred to me that, that little… so this is the lesson this year, that little voice that you’ve mentioned in your story of who’s like, “Don’t fucking call this guy. You don’t need to call this guy.” That voice happened for me in this, with this person and this relationship in several relationships like it like a year ago.

MC: Yeah.

Jackee: And so, a lot of the feelings of “Whoa.” We’re just like, “Fuck, why didn’t I listen to that voice? Why didn’t I listen to that voice? I could’ve avoided all of this bullshit.” Because you can always pin back that moment of like, “Oh. That’s when whoever was telling me…” It’d be nice…

…If we could go ahead.

MC: You may have thought. Yeah. So I had this conversation with this friend of mine, Sam Wallace, he’s a doctor. And-

Jackee: Shout out to Sam.

MC: Huh?

Jackee: Shout out to Sam.

MC: Shout out to Sam Wallace.

Jackee: You’ve got to shout… it’s a shout out. It’s a podcast shout out.

MC: Just a shout out. He’s a doctor in Western Montana. And we were in premed together. And he used to talk about, we used to talk about this in relationships. It’s like, there’s somebody and you want to have a relationship with them for one reason or another, but then there’s this gigantic stop sign that says “Stop.” But then you think, “You know what? I’m just going to drive by that stop sign because for whatever, the one reason or another was, it seemed like a good idea. And maybe we should just keep going.”

Now I’ve only driven past that stop sign, maybe four or 5,000 times. And so then… but then knowledge… self knowledge enough to begin to realize, “Oh, okay. I just drove by that stop sign.” So then I’m now where I am is, I know I’m super aware if I drive by the stop sign and I kind of know I’m taking a little bit of a risk, but this person, or I don’t think it’s even going to work out. A lot of times I’ll be like, “You know what? I don’t think this is really going to work out,” but then sometimes I’ll just play it through because it’s just like not going to take that much.

And if it works, it’s going to be amazing. And sometimes it does. But then also, because I’m aware of the fact that I drove through the stop sign of whatever that is, when it doesn’t work out, I’m easier on myself than I used to be. Because I’m like, “I did totally ignore my intuition on that.”

Jackee: Yeah. You know, it’d be wonderful if we could correlate healthy gut biome directly to a louder volume of intuition. Because you know how we say, “Your gut,” but there’s biological gut. There’s the spiritual gut.

MC: So-

Jackee: Like some sort of remedy for volume, for gut volume.

MC: So listen to this one, this is an interesting idea. You know, how we crowd source certain ideas?

Jackee: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MC: So there’s like trillions of bacteria in your intestines, like three to 10 pounds of bacteria. And then so much of our intuition is this gut sense. And you could almost say it’s like a average of those trillions of lifeforms that are in us. It’s like they’re sensing stuff and how good it’s going to be for us. I mean, that would be… that’s kind of an interesting idea.

Jackee: It’s totally an interesting idea. Wait, we should animate it.

MC: That would be a good animation because… That would be really good animation because I think now interestingly, the… if your gut health is amazing, I generally think your health is overall going to… you almost never see anybody that has amazing gut health and then everything else is bad.

Jackee: Right. Yeah.

MC: So then, that’s one. So then making good… making some… So then you can… you can kind of… the hack is everything that you do for yourself. Like you wouldn’t believe how many phone calls that I’ve had this week where people call me and they go… and there’s a shout out to the super nice lady that I told her to watch the podcast. And then it turns out she’s been going to McDonald’s and, but it’s just so stressful. You can’t see any of your friends, you can’t do anything that you do.

And interestingly, if you eat it McDonald’s is going to create mass inflammation and it’s going to create a fight or flight circumstance down on your belly. And then that does kind of numb you to the chaos of fear and stuff like that.

Jackee: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MC: And so then part of it is like… we did this, we did this thing where I did the… I go, “I’m done with fast food,” and then we just kept doing that back and forth affirmation and she’s going to do it with her husband this week. And then we came up with an idea that we’re just going to be done with that.

Jackee: Just done with it. Are they still selling McDonald’s?

MC: I think apparently, yeah. Because she’s been going every day.

Jackee: Here’s a sideline question. So the medicine, the malaria drug that they’re using for COVID treatment Harlequin…

MC: Yeah.

Jackee: …Or Phil-Aquin or whatever Quinn. So because that affects inflammation positively or decreases inflammation, could you just take it if you have other kind of inflammation, like from eating McDonald’s?

MC: I wouldn’t think of that as an anti-inflammatory drug. It does help inflammation in some patients that have autoimmune conditions like lupus and stuff like that. I’ve talked to probably 50 people, 50 doctors that have treated patients with it, who told me it for sure works.

Jackee: Right.

MC: So now it’s almost impossible to get. And so I don’t know why that is. I don’t know if it’s just all being stored for the government or what. It’s kind of odd and hopefully we’ll get a lot of access to that. The problem is nobody has access to it. And so you can’t… So saying that we could use a prophylactically is not going to be a possibility. What I believe is that the right things to do is going to be, if someone gets an upper respiratory set of symptoms that sounds like COVID then ideally they’re going to get a test, but there’s lack of access to testing.

Jackee: As we know.

MC: So then if someone had a fever and a cough and had potentially an exposure I would put them on that medication. If they started to have… Now it can have some effects on the heart and so, you have to rule those things out. And then if they started to get a pneumonia, I would put them on azithromycin. In addition to that, I would also-

Jackee: Z-Pak.

MC: A Z-Pak. Now, the combination of those two can put people at even higher risk of this one problem with the heart. So you have to rule all of that stuff out. And then I would also put them on zinc because part of the mechanism that hydroxychloroquine has is that it helps open up the membrane to zinc and let it sink into the cells, which can help to have a bad effect on the viruses, which is good.

And so then I would do a couple other things too. Now, knowing that means there’s some fairly good strategies out there. And then there’s a whole bunch of other stuff that you can do that’s more off-label. And so then, what I would do is just know, in your mind and in your consciousness, that there’s a lot that can be done. Which kind of… then is… goes along with my attitude, which is pretty amazing. You’re going to be fine.

Jackee: It’s going to be amazing. I generally love that attitude. And I do think that people are cracking a bit and they’re looking for… They’re cracking in ways they might not crack otherwise because they’re, well at home and they in idle hands, all the devil’s playground and people start to just kind of spiral mentally, which is why everyone’s talking about the PTSD that’s obviously… the mental PTSD that’s going to come from just people quarantining for the first time in their life. Not really knowing how to handle that.

MC: Oh yes but I’ve got the greatest news ever.

Jackee: Yay. What’s that?

MC: We’re obviously working with you on some of the PTSD reset, but we’re mailing you ketamine, and you’re going to do a ketamine session very soon over Zoom with us.

Jackee: I’m super stoked. I’m not stoked for the reasons you might think, like I’m getting e in the mail because I’d actually prefer it in an IV, but it’s… if I had it today, for example, I think I would’ve come right out of that spiral sooner and weaken my immune system less with, because I would have had less emotional stress.

MC: But then what’s going to be amazing is, is we’re going to do this. And then how long do you usually feel better for after you do it?

Jackee: Like five to seven days.

MC: That could be like a quarter of the quarantine.

Jackee: Yeah.

MC: Or depending on how long it is.

Jackee: So what do you think? So, okay, so we’re talking now about at home or tele ketamine, telemedicine in general. Thank goodness. The restrictions on that have been lightened up, but there’s a company in New York. I forget what their… Mindbloom. They, I think, were the first to come out with this ability for New Yorkers, I’m not sure if it’s nationwide, but definitely for people in New York to be able to receive ketamine treatment, prescription ketamine psychedelic therapy by of course, a licensed physician, which means people get certain forms of ketamine in the mail, and then they are told how to consume it. And then I’m not sure during, or after you have an integration or process session with a licensed professional on your computer… is it during or after, or both?

MC: What we’re doing is we’re supporting you during the session and then there’s followup afterwards.

Jackee: Right.

MC: And so we’re doing it. I think we’re going to be doing it in every state.

Jackee: I think that’s so amazing for people. I’m so excited for people. And it’s not that expensive either. I mean, everyone… The market’s going to fluctuate in pricing, that’s going to go through that whole thing. But generally speaking, the ketamine itself is not that expensive.

MC: It’s yeah. Well, we… I made a… we sent an email out to our practice and the bunch of people just were like, “Okay, yeah, we want to do it. Can you mail it to us tomorrow?” As people who we’ve had. And so I put together a protocol of a whole bunch of things that are going to make your mitochondria work better. And then, we’re going to give you the ketamine. And this is, as you know, ketamine works way better when you get N.A.D and all of the stuff that we do.

Jackee: Everything works better with N.A.D, but yes, for me.

MC: That everything does… That’s actually true. But then it’s going to be cheaper than in the office. So how great is that? And this reframing, it might be that if you can kind of change your angle on things at home, it’s like all the sudden… what I always feel like with ketamine when I talk to people, is that it’s kind of like people see, “Oh, I’m going to be okay.” I say that a lot, but I feel like it’s like… I remember one day you were like, “Oh, you said, “Oh, doc, I’m actually okay.””

Jackee: Right.

MC: But it’s not like you get that in a little bit, it’s like you get it and you viscerally totally feel that. And I think what’s going to happen is people are going to go into this visceral acceptance that they’re going to be okay during, while they’re in quarantine. And so then all of a sudden that changes everything because then, what’s going to happen is, you’re going to come out of quarantine on the other side, kind of with this new realization, because if you can get through that and be good, then you can get through anything.

Jackee: I just had a great thought, a very impractical thought, but what if, God, we could give the front lines, health workers, interspersed ketamine treatments? I wonder how that would affect their resilience? I could wager pretty strong guess based on my experience how that would help their resistance or resilience, but… because it’s just, it’s not really depleting. It doesn’t… I’ve only done it with NAD prior. So my mitochondria gets your strong and juicy, but…

MC: Okay. Here’s how I’ll do this. I’ll do shout out, shout out to people who want to help.

Jackee: Yeah.

MC: If you want to donate, I’ll do… We came up with our protocol of whatever we’re going to do. So then, if you want to donate a session, I’ll do two for one.

Jackee: Two for one special.

MC: Two for one special sale. So, if you buy a session for a health care worker, we’ll just… we’ll treat two instead of treating one.

Jackee: Oh, that’s amazing. Wow.

MC: And it’s interesting, Jackie, this one-

Jackee: Well, I’ll definitely do that. So you got one.

MC: Okay. Yeah. So then what happens is if you’re a healthcare worker and you’re working in… we’re going to… we’ll do this for EMTs and nurses and just anybody that’s working in a hospital that’s in fight or flight.

Jackee: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MC: And so then you can just go reach out to us at BioReset Medical and then we’ll just try to… we’ll just see if we can… people can donate. But what is crazy, Jackie, is, this is this crazy moment where on hospitals, if somebody is… It starts to go down, it’s like they have virus and the virus is just coming off them. And so then the people have to run into the room. And like, I did this podcast with my friend, Matt, and basically, he has to put breathing tube in them and he’s got to be super careful and not expose all the other people in the room. And yet all kinds of… The health care workers are converting and the ER doctors are converting. And so people are super, super stressed. And so then we have to support those people because they’re kind of like the first responders of 9/11.

Jackee: They are. And it’s a beautiful thing, but also scary thing. There was a wonderful first hand account on the Washington Post social media, it’s probably on their site too, where there’s a doctor at a hospital in Queens that’s taken over from COVID patients and he does a very raw in your face, “This is my experience.” And as he was talking, saying, “Oh, I wear this mask. I wear the second mask in case liquids or particulates fly off when I’m incubating somebody.” And then I had this moment of thought, well…not by any fault of their own, and this is maybe not true for everyone, but I think that, that’s going to affect their ability to perform super well when they’ve got that in their head, right? Their reaction time is going to be like millisecond slower. I would think it’d be only natural unless they teach that out of you in school. I’m not sure.

MC: But you know what? That’s a good one. So then we’ll go back. I’m going to weave this into this kind of conversation we were having about misogyny and stuff like that. So what happens is your initial trauma, as soon as you kind of change and reframe it, becomes this amazing thing. Because once you overcome it, it becomes like kind of a badge of strength for you. And then often you end up getting the opportunity to help other people, right?

Jackee: Hopefully. Yeah. Hopefully that’s what, yeah-

MC: That’s the goal. And so then for me, it was like in a way kind of my trauma was like anesthesia and doing all of this crazy stuff. And I remember at the time, thinking I doubt that there’s a way out of this.

Jackee: If there’s a way out for you?

MC: For me. Yeah, at the time. But then I got out and then it’s interesting because I finally reached the demographic that I was really, again in the back of my mind, hoping for all of this time, which was I talked to a couple anesthesia residents this week and they were like, “How do I become you?” And I was like, “Finally, I’m going to tell you exactly how to become me and your life is going to be totally amazing.” And so-

Jackee: But we still need anesthesiologists, though, right?

MC: We still need anesthesiologists obviously, but if you’re an anesthesiologist and you want to do what I do, you would be infinity more happy than you are.

Jackee: Right.

MC: But so in a paradoxical way, when I think of all of those first responders out there, I realized that was just me eight years ago.

Jackee: Yeah.

MC: So then if I could help some of those people by giving them ketamine or just cheering them up or maybe just on this podcast, if they realize, “Oh, I actually have a pathway to be free,” that actually heals me.

Jackee: Right.

MC: Because then it makes me kind of happy that I did that. And it makes me almost look back at the trauma and realize, well, I’m kind of glad that happened because at least it helps me relate to them. And then it gives me purpose, like this whole PTSD reset. It makes me feel like, oh, it’s kind of like if I hadn’t done that, I would have no idea what to say to those people.

And interestingly, what I feel like is going to happen is, and I feel this is why I was kind of pumped when I was talking to you guys the other day. This is why I’m so optimistic because I feel like we’re going to start to create a community around healing, trauma and PTSD. And then there’s a whole bunch of people that are in trauma right now, and I’m talking to you right now and I’m telling you, we’re going to support you on the other side of this. The concept is, is that you’re going to be better than you ever possibly could have been if it hadn’t happened.

Jackee: Right.

MC: Because you’re going to go-

Jackee: You find gratitude for your trauma.

MC: Yeah.

Jackee: You know where the first time I ever heard that was?

MC: Where?

Jackee: Doc is fixing his IV… It’s fine. You’re fine. I’m just telling the people what you’re doing. Was from you. The first session I had with you was the first time I had a medical person frame my trauma in a way. And I think by the end of that conversation, we had at least opened the door for me to find gratitude for my drunk, alcoholic, douchebag father drama. And like, what was I? 34 years old at that point? It’s like I had done tons of psychotherapy, had done tons of psychedelics on my own. I had taken SSRI’s. I had what else? I’ve gone to cognitive behavioral, all this bullshit and no one ever like brought that up. No one ever talked about conflating trauma. No one talked about a way out being, “Oh, well it’s a process, but we’re going to get you to gratitude because gratitude is your fucking freedom.”

And most people, they don’t want to hold onto their trauma. It sucks. It’s a giant bag of bricks. You’re like, “Oh my God, I can get rid of this? Thank you.” So yeah, you’ve been so helpful in helping me unpack that shit and reorganize it on the shelves.

MC: Are you ready for this one?

Jackee: I’m born ready.

MC: Born ready. So then this would be pretty good one. And this is a hack, is to have gratitude for whatever it was, like the trigger of the yesterday.

Jackee: Yeah.

MC: Because it kind of leads to this conversation.

Jackee: Yeah. Here’s the cool thing. I found gratitude for it in like a fraction of the time than I would have two years ago.

MC: Okay.

Jackee: I was able to find gratitude for it. The pain is still there. The irritant is still there. The fear is still there. I got to the lesson sooner. I got to like the, “Oh fuck, okay. This is what it’s teaching me.” And then that feels you faster. And if you’re a person like me, who’s like going somewhere, trying to fucking get somewhere here, I ain’t got no time to waste. I got to get to that gratitude.

MC: Ain’t nobody got time for that Jackee.

Jackee: Ain’t nobody got time for that shit.

MC: Yeah. Sweet Brown is one of my favorite mentors. Remember that lady Sweet Brown? She had a video that went viral a couple of years ago.

Jackee: No, but I love that name. I missed that one.

MC: There’s a woman, and it’s kind of-

Jackee: I’m going to look it up while you’re talking.

MC: Funny because this woman, it was the African American woman, there was a video and she said something like, “Bronchitis, ain’t nobody got time for bronchitis.” She had a raspy voice.

Jackee: know you got the COVID. Look, I’m going to play it. Ready?

MC: Okay.

Jackee: Oh, wait, hold on. Helen Mirren is selling me an ad for a masters class.

MC: Oh, nice.

Jackee: Here we go.

MC: Is it coming? Maybe Sweet Brown had COVID.

Jackee: Ain’t nobody got time for that. We should bring that back. Oh God bless you, Sweet Brown.

MC: Sweet Brown is sweet, yes, amazing.

Jackee: She was like singing. It’s very sing-some.

MC: Yeah. It was amazing. Yeah. So then the gratitude is interesting and it’s interesting for me to talk to people, and it’s interesting to figure out how to manage emotions and then manage bringing something like that up, particularly when traumatic, crazy stuff has happened.

Jackee: Well, and ketamine makes that easier, right?

MC: Ketamine makes it easier. And then-

Jackee: Depending on the dose, because you can’t really talk in some doses.

MC: So this one I figured out how to do only in about the last four months. And then this has been interesting because I don’t know if I told you this, but I’ll be generally just be bopping around in my normal reality, which is that everything’s going to be amazing. And so I basically kind of feel like that almost all the time or I’m just in operational mode, just trying to think how do I make things good?

And so then what will happen is I’ll be going along and then something will happen that I did not expect, that will be totally overwhelming to me. And I’ll just want to start crying because it’s so overwhelming. And generally it’s like the one that got me like recently was like when I had this mother and then next thing I know, this child that as my patient, I find out was sexually abused. And so then I’ll be there and it’s very interesting because then my team and my staff is all there and like stuff, and it’s like the most overwhelming I want to cry that I’ve ever had. And then what I’ll do is I won’t hide it, but I’ll just kind of be with it. And it’ll usually take me about two or three minutes of just kind of breathing and just kind of being there.

And then what I’ll do is, and just even just bringing it up kind of makes me feel emotional a little bit, but then what I’ll do is I’ll sit there and I’ll be with them and I’ll like look him in the eye and I’ll be talking to him. It’ll take me about a few minutes of just kind of talking, and then what I’ll notice is I’ll start to feel the feelings. This is maybe my hack for you on some of this stuff is because then I’ll feel the feelings and when I start out, it’s like overwhelming, crazy, I want to cry. And I don’t have a way to rationalize it or get to a safe spot.

Jackee: Right. I know the feeling, yeah.

MC: And what I got to the point of is now I don’t cry, but I feel crazy emotional. And then I’ll be kind of like working my way through it. And I’m doing something kind of with my normal clinical way of being, which is just nice. But then I’m feeling this emotion as I go through, and then what I’ll do is I’ll start to say nice things to the person to kind of make them feel safe. And I’ll kind of talk to them about boundaries and being in your bubble and some of the stuff that we’ve talked about.

And then what will happen is all of a sudden, everybody’s kind of we’re all together. And then what I noticed is then I’ll feel really grateful that I’m at least able to be there for them. And then what will happen is we’ll come up with an idea that we’re going to totally get over it. I got to the point of I’ll somehow navigate to the idea that it’s going to be amazing from the chaos of overwhelmed emotions. And it’s like I didn’t suppress the emotion, and then I’ll end up, I’ll be like really happy that I’m able to at least be with them. And then what I always do, then I always play a song.

Jackee: Right.

MC: Because I walk around. If you’ve never been to my clinic, I walk around with this the whole time.

Jackee: I see JBL’s speaker. Shout out to JBL.

MC: We have to do a real shout out to JBL. And then interestingly, it’ll just like heal something in me. I’ll feel better. I’ll just start to feel better.

Jackee: I just thought of Barb.

MC: Oh yeah.

Jackee: I just yawned. And I thought of Barb and I thought of her stating recently that there’s some school of thought that Dean’s yawns being like a release of energy, which I love, because when you can visualize something like that or put like a function to that kind of a bodily movement, then it can be very healing. And I noticed I yawn a lot when we have these conversations. It’s not because I’m tired. And I do it with, yeah, with my friend Stacy to who’s a teacher. And it’ll be in the middle of the day and she’s talking and I’ll just start yawning. But it’s just like your release of bullshit. So next time you yawn ladies and gentlemen don’t think of it as being tired. Think of it as a release.

MC: Yeah. Do you ever have that where it’s almost like you’re having a hard time getting a big breath and then all of a sudden you’ll take a big breath?

Jackee: Oh yeah.

MC: And then that sometimes will release energy. And so then this idea, I want you to practice this idea of when, and for me it’s a practice, of when I get that overwhelm, then I’m like, “Oh my God.” Because when it starts, I’ll feel like I have no idea at all if I’m going to be able to get through this one.

Jackee: Yeah.

MC: The first time that it happened to me, I thought, I think I’m going to totally lose it and start crying in front of everybody. And then I don’t know what I’m going to do.

Jackee: Start running around with your hands-

MC: I just thought that I was like, this is going to be really bad. But then what happened is as soon as I did it like three times, now whenever it happens, I know, oh, this is going to be totally perfect. And so then just knowing that I figured out how to do this, how I do it is just probably just how I do it, but then you’re going to find your way to do that. And then that is going to be like the greatest gift of all time, I think for you.

Jackee: Well, to me, it’s more preventative. My head is to learn so that I don’t walk into situations that are going to end like this. I’m just like, “How do I keep this from happening?”

MC: Yeah.

Jackee: Here’s my answer, ladies and gentlemen, are you ready for this?

MC: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jackee: Discernment.

MC: Ooh, that’s a really, really good one.

Jackee: Yeah. You have to practice discernment, which is really a form of self-love and boundary setting that allows you to function in the world, but really open your gates up to a select few who you vibe with.

MC: How many times do you think in your relationship with me we’ve had a conversation about boundaries?

Jackee: A lot.

MC: I bet you I never had a conversation about boundaries from the time that I was like 20 until I was like 35, I bet you.

Jackee: No, we’re absolutely not taught boundaries for the most part. I certainly wasn’t. I don’t know what the fuck they were. And so you have to become an adult and cry a bunch and like learn the hard way. But I think one of the first, again, something you taught me and I feel kind of silly because I was like 34 when this like dawned on me, but it was something, I forget what situation we were in. But we were with other people and it was somebody else in the group who had like started talking about consent. Like that consent is important. They were like to someone else in the room, “Can I put my hand on your shoulder because consent is important.”

You and I watched that happen. And then we started talking about it and you were like, “Consent is important.” It was like the Star Spangled Banner went off with like fireworks. And I was like, “Oh God, consent is important. Never occurred to me.” Or at least I never like vocalized it in that way. Like how silly to be 34 years old, a female? And that wasn’t a concept that I walked around with in my head until then.

MC: I know it’s crazy. And so then that goes to show you how powerful just these little things that we say are.

Jackee: Totes.

MC: Yeah. Hey, you know what?

Jackee: What’s up boss?

MC: I feel like we nailed it.

Jackee: We nailed it.

MC: I feel like we totally nailed it. I think that you’re going to release a lot of energy tonight when you sleep. Do we have any final things? I just felt like what I would like to just tell about a hundred patients in a row to listen to this, because I think we’ll look back on this and five years could be like, this was the beginning of like… I feel unbelievably excited for people to begin to kind of try these things on. And I think it’s just going to be great.

Jackee: I think so, too. I’m going to mental note where the end is by the way, and it was like two minutes back or we can end it later. But I’m just sort of going with the flow naturally and not like over producing it. Right? Like I do most things. And just allowing the creative part of just publishing semi-private, but not super private, but semi-private conversations, I think is super fucking cool.

MC: Yeah. And even if you’re still recording, I think it helps you be honest with yourself when let’s say, even like I’m just saying, like I had this conflict yesterday. You know what I mean?

Jackee: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

MC: And then when you make it public is kind of, I think it’s awesome.

Jackee: It’s freeing. It’s freedom.

MC: Yeah.

Jackee: Freedom. You’re going to go have dinner with Barb?

MC: I’m going to have dinner and it’s going to be amazing.

Jackee: All right my friend.

MC: Okay.

Jackee: Bye.

We are a nation with no geographic boundaries, bound together through our beliefs. We are like-minded individuals sharing a common vision, pushing toward a world rid of [inaudible 00:01:35:16].


  • Reality Sandwich

    Life is Psychedelic. Reality Sandwich serves you the most up to date information on psychedelic science, art, culture, news and substances. Knowledge is power, have a bite!

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