In the ever-expanding world of psychedelic exploration and therapy, few voices resonate with the clarity and wisdom of Charley Wininger. A renowned psychotherapist and author, Wininger has become a pivotal figure in the modern psychedelic renaissance, offering a unique blend of professional insight and personal experience. His work, deeply rooted in the principles of psychology and the transformative power of psychedelics, has illuminated the paths of countless individuals seeking mental and spiritual growth.
In this exclusive interview with Reality Sandwich, we explore Wininger’s life and teachings. Known for his groundbreaking book Listening to Ecstasy: The Transformative Power of MDMA, Wininger has emerged as a leading advocate for the responsible use of MDMA and other psychedelics in therapeutic settings.
His approach, which emphasizes the importance of set and setting, mindfulness, and the integration of psychedelic experiences into daily life, has not only revolutionized the way we view these substances but has also provided invaluable tools for emotional and psychological healing.
Wininger’s teachings can offer a roadmap to a more conscious, connected, and fulfilling life. Whether you’re a long-time follower of his work or just discovering his profound insights, this article promises to be an enlightening journey into the heart of modern psychedelic therapy.
Reality Sandwich: Can you share a little about yourself and tell us about your initial encounter with psychedelics and how it shaped your path toward becoming a psychotherapist and an advocate for their use?
Charley Wininger: I have been a psychotherapist in private practice for the past 35 years, but I’ve been a psychonaut for the past 55 years. I am the author of Listening to Ecstasy: The Transformative Power of MDMA. My current focus as a therapist revolves around working with couples, while in my psychedelic-related endeavors, my attention has been on building the community here in New York City alongside my wife, Shelley. Over the past 15 years, we’ve dedicated ourselves to nurturing the Psychedelic Community in New York, primarily through hosting group experiences both indoors and outdoors, typically two or three times a year.
My first encounter with psychedelics occurred in 1969 at my crash pad in the East Village, where I experimented with mescaline. I had a remarkable experience where I could access my memory files as if flipping through a file cabinet with my fingers. I vividly recalled memories from my childhood and felt a compelling message as the effects of mescaline waned—almost as if it were urging me to return, promising more revelations. Since then, while I couldn’t find mescaline again, I’ve embarked on numerous journeys with LSD, psilocybin, and later MDMA.
RS: How has your experience as a “former hippie” influenced your current views on psychedelics and mental health?
CW: In the 60s, we said you’re either part of the solution or part of the problem. We’re all here to improve the world and bring peace and love to the planet. That, to me, is the Psychedelic Vision as well. And psychedelics have taught me so much. They helped form my politics and my cosmology. To the point where I realized that we are all together on this planet—we have much more in common with each other than we realize—even those we perceive as the enemy or the opposition.
I believe I’m changing the world one person or couple at a time in my therapy practice (which is done without medicine.) I’m also engaged in group psychedelic work, although I’m not acting as a therapist when I’m hosting these groups. These are not healing ceremonies; they’re simply containers that I build for people to come together, find each other, and commune for the day. They’re very healing types of events that create an intimate and profound sense of connection among the participants. And that’s also what’s changing the world.
RS: In your book Listening to Ecstasy, you talk about MDMA being an ’emotional superglue’ for your marriage. Could you elaborate on how MDMA can enhance relationships and intimacy?
CW: My wife and I met almost 25 years ago. She found out I was an ex-hippie, though I’m not entirely sure about the “ex” part. She had just left a repressive marriage. Psychedelics were entirely new to her; she had barely finished a joint in her life. At the time, she was 49 years old and eager to make up for lost time.
When she expressed interest in trying MDMA, which was called ecstasy back then, I hesitated. My previous experiences with it had been negative because I hadn’t followed proper protocols. However, I wanted to support her desires. So, I sourced pure MDMA and educated myself about the protocols to ensure we could use it safely.
That first time we tried it together was a revelation for both of us. MDMA quickly became her preferred medicine, and we discovered new depths in our relationship. Over the past 20 years, we’ve used MDMA together about four or five times a year. It has added layers of depth, connection, joy, and playfulness to our relationship.
We’ve learned that a relationship founded on these qualities can weather the inevitable challenges. Whether it’s minor disagreements or health crises, MDMA has acted as a sort of super glue, holding us together in a relationship filled with joy and profound ecstatic connection.
RS: What advice would you give to couples who are considering exploring MDMA together?
CW: To truly understand this, it’s crucial to grasp that its effects accumulate over time. This is what we’ve discovered: safety must come first. Learning and following the protocols is non-negotiable. Without doing it right, it’s better not to do it at all. Mastering the protocols is essential. When done correctly, it becomes a practice, much like meditation, spirituality, or exercise routines.
Having a guide, especially for the first time, is highly recommended. It can significantly enhance the quality of your relationship and act as a safeguard against the internal and external forces that tend to pull many people apart these days.
RS: You lecture on “Psychedelics Across The Lifespan.” How do you see the role of psychedelics changing as one ages?
CW: Psychedelics or, in my experience—a trip—is akin to taking a brief helicopter ride above your life. Surveying the territory, looking out at where you are now and envisioning where you may want to go in the future. It’s a beautiful trip, and life is full of transitions. So for those who are aging, actually, we’re all aging, aren’t we? In transitioning from middle-aged to seniorhood, and in the time I’ve spent with Shelley, who, by the way, I’ll be turning 75 with on Bicycle Day this year, I’ve gained valuable insights.
What I’ve learned is that psychedelics offer perspective on life’s changes, aiding in acceptance. I’ve come to accept the changes in my body and brain, acknowledging that not all changes are negative. Psychedelics have also helped me challenge societal norms, particularly the notion that aging diminishes one’s value. This conventional mindset, pervasive in our society, suggests that age is a liability and that one’s worth decreases with time. It’s nonsense, and psychedelics have helped me confront and reject it.
I’ve realized that I have as much, if not more, to offer now than ever before. I refuse to internalize the shame society often imposes on seniors, especially regarding their appearance, physical condition, or mental sharpness. Psychedelics have empowered me to reject these harmful stereotypes and embrace the richness and vitality of seniorhood.
RS: As a psychotherapist, how do you integrate the insights gained from psychedelics into your therapeutic approach, even though you don’t use them directly in your practice?
CW: MDMA, in particular, has helped me become a better therapist because it’s helped me develop my talent for empathy. MDMA opens the heart and helps one get in touch with their kinship with the people around them. That’s helped me be more empathetic, and that’s a chief quality for any therapist.
When working with clients, I prefer to use the term “client” rather than “patient” to emphasize the supportive environment that MDMA can create. Even though the session remains sober, my aim is to ensure they feel safe, welcomed, and as open as they would during an MDMA experience.
RS: You and your wife Shelley have been instrumental in building the psychedelic community in New York. What do you think are the key elements for fostering a healthy and supportive psychedelic community?
CW: I highly value open-heartedness and inclusivity, particularly in creating an environment that embraces diversity, including gender and sexuality diversity. It’s essential that everyone feels comfortable and welcome, whether the events are sober or not.
For instance, we organize annual potluck dinners during the holiday season in December. These gatherings aren’t specifically psychedelic events but are for the psychedelic community. We’ve been hosting these dinners for 20 years now, and they’ve become a cherished tradition. Recently, we celebrated our 20th year by hosting two back-to-back evenings, each with around 50 attendees.
These potluck dinners provide an opportunity for people to reconnect and strengthen their bonds within the community. We also utilize chat groups, such as WhatsApp and Signal, to help people stay connected beyond these gatherings. It’s all about fostering ongoing connections and a sense of community.
RS: What are your thoughts on the current direction of psychedelic research and its potential impact on society?
CW: We’re currently witnessing an exciting Renaissance in the field of psychedelic medicines. MDMA looks like it’s on track to become the first to cross the federal legalization finish line, possibly later this year. While this development holds promise for both current and future users, there’s concern about the potential influence of big money in the space, given our capitalist system.
Understandably, there’s a fear that capitalism could lead to the domination of the psychedelic industry by large corporations. However, psychedelics have always been accessible to the people and can continue to be so. If we’re worried about equitable access to these medicines, particularly for those with limited means, it’s up to us in the underground to keep the underground alive.
While advocacy for above-ground access is crucial, we can’t solely rely on these efforts. We must also take proactive measures to safeguard access for those who need it, even if mainstream efforts fall short. It’s our responsibility to prevent big business from monopolizing the psychedelic space and to ensure that these transformative experiences remain accessible to all who seek them.
RS: For someone new to psychedelics, especially older adults, what guidance would you offer for a safe and meaningful experience?
CW: Remove distractions, put away your phone, make sure there are no children around. Pussycats are generally fine, but a dog might demand too much attention or need to be walked, so it’s best to have someone else care for them for the day.
Proper preparation is key, which involves educating yourself about the substance and clarifying your intentions for the experience. During the journey, it’s important to let go of expectations and allow the experience to unfold naturally. Having a partner present can be beneficial, especially for first-time experiences, though having a guide is even better. However, if it’s just the two of you, particularly with a substance like MDMA, it can still work well.
Integration afterward is crucial. Schedule your experience on a day when you have no obligations the next day to allow time for reflection and self-care. Spend the following day in an afterglow state, journal, take care of your body, and talk about the experience. Consider how you can integrate the insights gained into your life moving forward, both individually and as a couple.
Please understand that the difference between a medicine and a poison lies in the dose. For instance, with MDMA, it’s essential to know what you’re taking and test it for purity using a testing kit. Even if you trust the source, testing is non-negotiable. Only use substances that pass the purity test, and use a scale that can measure doses accurately, typically around 120 milligrams for MDMA. Similarly, with LSD, start with a small dose and wait before taking more because it’s hard to know how strong (i.e., how many micrograms) your dose of LSD is. For mushrooms, knowing the source and starting with a low dose is crucial.
These are the standard protocols for a safe experience with psychedelics, and a good starting point.
RS: Can you share any personal anecdotes or observations where MDMA facilitated significant breakthroughs in mental health?
CW: The most significant breakthroughs I’ve witnessed involve couples who have used psychedelics. I’ve heard of remarkable transformations and couples who credit these experiences with saving their marriages. Many couples report profound turnarounds, especially when guided by a trained therapist who can adequately prepare them and help integrate the experience.
However, personally, the most profound effects I’ve seen have been with my wife. When I first met her, her self-esteem was significantly lower than it should have been. Using MDMA and cannabis as therapeutic tools, her self-esteem has grown to match her true worth. She now loves and appreciates herself, including her body. These experiences have not only benefited her individually but have also strengthened our relationship, leading us to achieve a state of maximum happiness together.
RS: How do you think psychedelics can contribute to solving some of the critical issues facing modern society, like disconnection or lack of community?
CW: MDMA, in particular, can be a powerful weapon against the epidemic of loneliness in this country. I often refer to MDMA as the “chemical of connection” because it has a remarkable ability to help individuals connect with themselves and others, and boy do we sure need it in our world today.
What I find most rewarding about the psychedelic community, which is just growing and growing, is not just the psychedelics themselves but the community it fosters. This community attracts wonderful individuals—open-hearted, open-minded, intelligent, and benevolent—who share a common goal of making the world a better place. They’re on a journey of self-healing and are dedicated to healing the world around them. Witnessing this dedication fills me with optimism, even in my old age.
Connect and learn with Charley on his website.
